Dr. Lorraine Besser — The Missing Piece of a Fulfilling Life with Dr. Lorraine Besser

[00:00:00] Lorraine Besser: So I describe it in terms of mindfulness 2.0. Right.

[00:00:03] Lorraine Besser: Which, which is a particular kind of noticing, right? if you think about mindfulness as origin, it’s all about noticing things happening within your mind. But we can use the same kind of awareness and particularly the nonjudgmental awareness of just things going on outside of us. I think very often we are really apt to evaluate things around us.

[00:00:22] Lorraine Besser: Right? But if we instead just resist that evaluation and then just take it in , for what it is, , we give ourselves this position where we are able to be aware of the things that’ll stimulate interesting experiences.

[00:00:34] Intro: Do you think money takes up more life space than it should? On this show, we discuss with and share stories from artists, authors, entrepreneurs, and advisors about how they mindfully minimize the time and energies. Spent thinking about money. Join your host, Jonathan DeYoe, and learn how to put money in its place and get [00:01:00] more out of life.

[00:01:08] Jonathan DeYoe: Hey, welcome back on this episode of The Mindful Money Podcast. I’m chatting with, Lorraine Besser PhD. Dr. Besser is a professor of philosophy at Middlebury College, specializing in the philosophy and psychology of the good life and teaches popular courses for undergraduates on happiness, wellbeing, and ethics. She’s the author of two academic books, The Philosophy of Happiness: An Interdisciplinary Introduction, and Eudaimonic Ethics: The Philosophy and Psychology of Living Well, and dozens of journal articles, etc. I wanted to have her on the podcast to talk about her first book intended for you and I The Art of the Interesting: What We Miss in Our Pursuit of the Good Life. So as a financial advisor, I’m often attempting to guide folks towards this good life. And while our listeners know I’m focused on more than money, I read the book because I wanna [00:02:00] know what I might be missing. Dr. Besser, welcome to the Mindful Money Podcast.

[00:02:04] Lorraine Besser: Yeah. Thank you Jonathan. It’s great to talk with you.

[00:02:07] Jonathan DeYoe: So first, where do you call home and where are you connecting from?

[00:02:11] Lorraine Besser: Yeah, so I call home Vermont I am here teaching at Middlebury College. I’ve been here for almost. I guess almost 17 years. And originally I’m from Connecticut, so I’ve always identified with New England and I’ve always really loved the woods and the trees and I’m really happy to have found a home here in Vermont.

[00:02:32] Jonathan DeYoe: Did you grow up there?

[00:02:33] Lorraine Besser: No, so I grew up in Connecticut ,to Hartford and yeah, I loved, I think. I loved that area and I loved the little healthiness and the small town kind of flavor. , so I left Connecticut and I went and adventured beyond there. I certainly was, was planning to get out. I went to school at Tulane, university of New Orleans, and since then I’ve lived in California, new England, [00:03:00] but I, I really.

[00:03:02] Lorraine Besser: You know, I’ve, I’ve come home in a way, coming back here after trying out some things.

[00:03:07] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Where? Where’d you live In California. I’m just curious.

[00:03:09] Lorraine Besser: So I, I’ve lived both in, uh, Northern California, so I, I was a postdoc at Stanford for a while. So I lived, um, in that area and early, I had, right out of college, I went to the Claremont Graduate School for a master’s degree. So , I’ve lived in both the, the north and south, occupying small parts of that.

[00:03:30] Jonathan DeYoe: I didn’t, I didn’t realize that you’re a Stanford grad because, uh, so I, I’m, I’m, very associated with Cal and I know they’re sort of arch enemies.

[00:03:37] Jonathan DeYoe: We, we’ll

[00:03:37] Jonathan DeYoe: just put

[00:03:38] Jonathan DeYoe: that the side today. We won’t, we won’t talk about that or the big game or anything like that. We’ll leave, we’ll leave that alone. So what did you, growing up in Connecticut, what did you learn about money or entrepreneurship, , as a kid or maybe early teens?

[00:03:49] Lorraine Besser: Yeah, I, I certainly witnessed a lot of wealth in entrepreneurship and you know, we’re, we’re living in a small town that’s, [00:04:00] that’s a relatively privileged town and, , relatively white. And so it’s a certain kind of climate where money was never seen to be a big struggle, , but certainly always appreciated and sought after.

[00:04:16] Lorraine Besser: , and in some ways more directly sought after, than others. , but , that was, the kind of. Climate in which I grew up, where, , the more was the better and, and that there, there wasn’t a lot of real struggle for, to fulfill our basic needs. Certainly not.

[00:04:33] Jonathan DeYoe: Hmm. Do, do you, uh, I don’t know if you remember an experience around shopping with mom or dad or the decision about buying a car or, I, I understand not a lot of struggle for basic needs, but I. What did you take out of childhood as like how we as humans interface with

[00:04:50] Jonathan DeYoe: money?

[00:04:51] Lorraine Besser: Yeah, so I’ll, I’ll give an example from my grandfather ’cause this had a big influence on me. So he was an MD and certainly [00:05:00] could afford, things like new cars and yet throughout his life he never purchased a new car. And, , so I really learned a lot from that, right? I, I learned about the importance of just using your money where.

[00:05:15] Lorraine Besser: Satisfy your needs and to be careful and about about spending in other areas. And I think I also really learned through that and through my parents, you know, we. I always, me and my siblings had cars to drive, but they were not new cars. , and it really, you know, became, solidified this kind of sense that I have now about finances, which is that they’re really important, but there is, you can, there’s a cap, right?

[00:05:44] Lorraine Besser: And that, , certainly in my own life, I. really choose to kind of respect a cap on material goods and then, , to spend my money on, you know, experiences. And, travel is a, is a big [00:06:00] important part of my life. And so I, I, you know, where there’s extras, it’s primarily going to travel and, uh, but I do, I do like that and I think everyone is.

[00:06:10] Lorraine Besser: Tuned into that saying that you should spend your money on experiences rather than, , stuff. And so I’ve always, you know, I’ve heard that, I know the research behind that and.

[00:06:25] Jonathan DeYoe: , I’m really curious because I know that, that, that that research is maybe 10 or 15 years old. It’s not very, it’s not very deep or long lasting research in terms of like, what, what should you spend your money on in terms of happiness? And I’ve read a ton of it. , , is there a group of academics that sort of talk about this or do you just read each other’s papers?

[00:06:43] Jonathan DeYoe: Do you, do you actually meet, is there a conference? you know? ? Do you know what I mean? Is there a big groundswell about

[00:06:48] Jonathan DeYoe: it? I.

[00:06:48] Lorraine Besser: , there’s a big groundswell of happiness and wellbeing research. , there’s a yearly conference where a group of, of us really who have devoted our. Primary of our scholarship to it where we meet to every year and [00:07:00] discuss many issues. And certainly that is, is one of them, about the limits of, the limits of materialism and, and the challenges that arise when we see materialism as the end goal.

[00:07:12] Lorraine Besser: And that really gets us on, I think, the wrong track towards happiness. So.

[00:07:19] Jonathan DeYoe: For sure. Just before we look at the, the book, the Art of Interesting, what do we miss in the Pursuit of Good Life? Can you sort of introduce us, the Mindful Money audience to your research and sort of your career

[00:07:31] Jonathan DeYoe: path?

[00:07:31] Lorraine Besser: Yeah. Thank you. So for many, for most of the time we’ve been thinking about wellbeing, we’ve been thinking about it in terms of these two different aspects, right? One’s wrapped up in happiness, right? , and that’s the familiar kind of happiness that we’re after. And the wrapped up with, with some kind of meaning, right?

[00:07:49] Lorraine Besser: , so there’s a wide range of different philosophical views that would fit under this umbrella, but it’s really what’s. Distinctive about this class is that it’s about using our [00:08:00] mind to strive beyond us. Mm-hmm. Right. And to, engage in things that will allow us to feel a sense of purpose, to give meaning to our lives and to achieve things.

[00:08:12] Lorraine Besser: And these are, really important parts of, , of living good lives. I completely agree with that, but What we’re finding in our new research is that there’s more, and it began with, , a hunch, and it wasn’t mine. It was, , my, my collaborator, Dr. Shige Oshi, he’s a psychologist at the University of Chicago, and he had this hunch that, yeah, we’re missing something that really involves these kinds of experiences that people do go after and that we do.

[00:08:42] Lorraine Besser: Value,, but they don’t seem to fit into this category of happiness and meaning. , and these are the interesting experiences. so there’s a state of psychological richness, uh, that really consists in this state of having the experience of. free-flowing thoughts and [00:09:00] emotions and just this really robust kind of cognitive engagement where you’re allowing your mind to just engage on all levels and really impact, your perspective, your emotions.

[00:09:12] Lorraine Besser: And we found through our research that, , this is. A category that is distinct from, our common categories of the good life, which means that it’s different than happiness and meaning and , somehow they can overlap. But,, very often it’s, the case that you can engage in interesting activities and experience psychological richness even in.

[00:09:34] Lorraine Besser: Things that do not otherwise leave you happy or provide meaning to your life. And the independence of this category from kind of our standard ways of thinking about the good life is, is really what’s driving this kind of what we’re missing in the pursuit of the good life. And so we’re missing, right?

[00:09:54] Lorraine Besser: We’re missing interesting experiences. And part of the title then is, is really trying to. [00:10:00] Identify and set out this this really important point that like we’re missing when we’ve been missing. , you know, researchers have everyday senses of the good life do. We’re missing something that is actually really, , important to people and is actually really valuable.

[00:10:17] Lorraine Besser: The deeper layer, , in which my title taps into though. Comes with this, aspect of interesting experiences, which is that they, they can’t be really pursued head on. And I think there is a very common phenomenon of when we are pursuing things, especially in the, for the sake of meaning or purpose, when we’re engaging our mind in that way, what we do is actually really miss out on a lot of things, right?

[00:10:45] Lorraine Besser: We’re focused on what we need to. In order to do that, we have to block out, , a lot of other things and a lot of other potential sources of interest. So I think that, , part of my interest in, writing this [00:11:00] book is, to show how while again, happiness and purpose are really important things in our lives, if either one of them takes too much of a role within our lives, then they’re really gonna limit our experiences and they’re gonna prevent us from.

[00:11:16] Lorraine Besser: Lives we can, , which , include happiness, meaning, and psychological.

[00:11:22] Jonathan DeYoe: So you, you speak of like the standard, the standard is, you know, happiness and, and meaning. When you say standard, , what are you referring to? , what makes it standard?

[00:11:31] Lorraine Besser: Yeah, so the long history of traditions makes it standard. , so Aristotle, right? Ancient Greek philosopher writing in three 50 BC introduces these categories, of the good life. That one is about happiness, which he describes in terms of pleasure. And one is about

[00:11:48] Lorraine Besser: meaning, which he described in terms of flourishing or Nia. And so he has set forward these, these. Distinctive, , forms of the good life that have really seized the [00:12:00] attention of certainly many philosophers who after Aristotle, we see different schools develop around these, you know, defending, , each of these conceptions of the good life. And so that has really informed the, philosophical understanding the good.

[00:12:16] Lorraine Besser: It’s carried over in a really significant way to psychological research. So, as you said, you know, psychological research about this stuff is relatively new and , you know, it tracks the positive psychology movement, which is, you know in the late 1990s and what positive psychologists did, right?

[00:12:35] Lorraine Besser: The first kind of move they made to talk about the good life and to kind of justify or, , motivate the psychological expiration of it, right, is that they, turned to Aristotle’s conception of the good life to identify the categories that they’re looking at. So we see some of these early positive psychologists directly.

[00:12:54] Lorraine Besser: Exciting in, in exploring aerosols conception and grounding their research in these very [00:13:00] two distinctive forms of the good life. And so I think that’s the real kind of movement, certainly within, positive psychology and the interdisciplinary study of happiness that kind of solidified this dichotomy right , , that the good life is either about happiness or meaning or, or some combination of both. and

[00:13:20] Lorraine Besser: I think it’s influenced a lot, what we value in our own lives. You know, I mean, forever we’ve been valuing, , purpose and striving for meaning, right? And we know there’s something special about us that makes that possible. , , and we know what’s important , to have these goals in life.

[00:13:36] Lorraine Besser: We also just have experienced happiness and know it’s good. So, so we also really recognize these things and given their, their kind of intuitive nature of, of why they’re appealing to individuals is also why they’ve been appealing to researchers. But I think it’s a combination of these trajectories that has made certainly contemporary current discourse to be all about, you know, happiness or [00:14:00] meaning.

[00:14:00] Lorraine Besser: And only recently about the possibility of. This third dimension. Right, which is psychological richness.

[00:14:07] Jonathan DeYoe: So what did in, in your research. How do you know, like what are the markers of this third dimension? I mean, you, you have this one, you have this one. How do you tell if there’s a third one?

[00:14:17] Lorraine Besser: Yeah. Yeah. So, There are two ways in

[00:14:20] Lorraine Besser: which we’ve done this, right? We’ve done this from a theoretical way, which is really my focus as a philosopher and from a empirical way, and the goal of each is to try to. how this third category is indeed its own third category and has distinctive markers that aren’t already captured within other theories.

[00:14:42] Lorraine Besser: so within philosophical theories, , , there’s been no real discussion right , of the value of interesting experiences or real acknowledgement of, their value. And, carving out the theoretical space for psychological richness right, , very much follows just from looking at the space that’s that [00:15:00] happiness and meaning are occupying and at the empirical level, right?

[00:15:03] Lorraine Besser: When we’re, when we’re trying to study this right , it’s all about developing the kind of markers of psychological richness. So the way in which we would do that empirically, and, and this is what Oshi studies were directly on, I was a collaborator with him on this grant. , , so working in conjunction with him, but he’s really running these psychological studies and what they’re trying to do is to develop, you know, this set of markers that categorize psychological richness,

[00:15:32] Lorraine Besser: Do not categorize happiness and meaning. Right? So, so it’s distinct. And so these kind of markers of psychological richness, right? Tracking specific attitudes towards things like challenge right? , and towards experiences and, and, , a sense of. Getting out of one’s comfort zone, right?

[00:15:52] Lorraine Besser: So really distinctive markers of happiness are, that , , it’s heavily correlated with things like safety and comfort [00:16:00] and psychological richness is not correlated with those. In fact, you know, you need to kind of get out of your comfort zones to, to have many of these experiences because.

[00:16:08] Lorraine Besser: Challenge is a really important source of psychological richness. It forces our minds to engage and to wrap our heads around new issues. , and on the meaning side. , the markers of meaning are going to be delivering something like this sense of purpose, this sense of fulfillment and distinctive to them are really kind of a dedication towards goals.

[00:16:30] Lorraine Besser: A commitment to them , and again, that is. Distinctive, very distinctive from psychological richness. Psychological richness engages a different category of our minds. , the one that’s not kind of like really structured, but the one that just engages for the sake of engagement and that kind of engagement for the sake of engagement, right ness.

[00:16:56] Lorraine Besser: From pursuits of meaning or something like that to, [00:17:00] uh, because pursuits of meaning involve a really distinctive form of engagement, right? Where you’re engaging for the sake of this. So, so things like structure, right? Going back again to those markers, right? Things like structure, , things like, , , needing a plan or a purpose right You know, essentially when you look at psychological richness, right? These are very opposite things, right? You don’t need structure in order to experience psychological richness. And , , it’s typical correlations are novelty, challenge and complexity. And those are distinctive correlations.

[00:17:35] Lorraine Besser: , that. neither Fulfillment or neither meaning meaningful adventures or meaningful goals or happiness captures., and yet there are the conditions under which psychological richness thrives.

[00:17:49] Jonathan DeYoe: I mean, can you give us just an example? , what is a psychologically rich experience that a common person might experience?

[00:17:56] Lorraine Besser: Yeah, so I think that a lot of these examples, [00:18:00] really speak to one’s first, experiences doing anything, and so.

[00:18:07] Lorraine Besser: For whomever you are. If you think about, you know, your first experience that is really memorable right? you’re remembering it to, because it really had an impact on you, right? It forced your mind to engage and it was new and different, right?

[00:18:21] Lorraine Besser: And whether this is from traveling to a foreign country or going to a different neighborhood or. , just going to a different kind of event, right? One of the earliest, , examples of psychological richness we found was a report of someone who had found herself, , a student who was not otherwise interested in this at all, but found herself at a world wrestling event, and she had all of these kind of negative expectations about what would happen, but then was just.

[00:18:49] Lorraine Besser: Completely blown away and she found all of her expectations did not happen. And instead she felt really moved and engaged by that experience. And

[00:18:59] Lorraine Besser: it is [00:19:00] the part of what’s doing a lot of work there is the novelty. And so I think that’s the easiest way to wrap our heads around, you know, what a psychological richness.

[00:19:08] Lorraine Besser: Is right. It’s our reactions to something that is really stimulating our minds, and, novelty is a good one, right? when we’re in any kind of new environment, right? We’re taking in , all of the details, all of the newness , and our minds are naturally trying to grapple with that, right?

[00:19:24] Lorraine Besser: That’s what our minds do in response to novelty. , and so those are, I think, really, , identifiable key experiences. Your first experiences of anything.

[00:19:35] Jonathan DeYoe: So there’s a lot of, I, I’ve read a lot about, . this comes from a lot of Buddhist training myself. So there’s a lot of focus on open awareness and curiosity and, seeking awe. Do these all dovetail with this

[00:19:47] Jonathan DeYoe: idea? I.

[00:19:48] Lorraine Besser: Yeah, absolutely. And so I think that, , the kind of awareness, right, that I think is distinctive and an important part of the Buddhist tradition is the kind of awareness we need [00:20:00] to bring to our environments to, really immerse ourself with them and. So I describe it in terms of mindfulness 2.0. Right.

[00:20:08] Lorraine Besser: Which, which is a particular kind of noticing, right? It’s if you think about mindfulness as origin, it’s all about noticing things happening within your mind. But we can use the same kind of awareness and particularly the nonjudgmental awareness of just things going on outside of us. I think very often we are really apt to evaluate things around us.

[00:20:29] Lorraine Besser: Right? We see it’s raining, we’re like. Bad. Right? We, we see, uh, traffic, we’re like bad, right? But if we instead just resist that evaluation and then just take it in , for what it is, a rainstorm, a lot of people on a street, right? Then, , , we give ourselves this position where we are able to be aware of the things that’ll stimulate interesting experiences.

[00:20:50] Jonathan DeYoe: So I have these prepared questions and then I always have this idea. Then it just takes me sideways. So I, I wanna go a different way here real quick. I’m wondering if the way we [00:21:00] educate kids these days, I. Pulls them away from this. ’cause I, I have two kids, 1 20, 1 17, and they start focusing. On the thing that they’re gonna study the rest of their lives when they’re 10. They focus on the sport now. And if you play soccer, it’s year round. You don’t have time to do anything else. When I was a kid, I played seven different sports. I was a boy scout. I did, you know, I did so much church groups, so many things, and we don’t do that anymore.

[00:21:26] Jonathan DeYoe: And so are we losing, just while you’re doing the research and discovering how important it is, are we losing access to this at the same time, like on a cultural level?

[00:21:36] Lorraine Besser: I think so. I, I have children the same age and, , I have seen that. Right. So drawing this comparison you made between trying a bunch of different sports and activities, , versus focusing on, on one , , sport, which I think is a. It’s a common phenomenon that people are starting to notice is problematic, , but it’s happened, right?

[00:21:56] Lorraine Besser: And think about the messages that, that we’re sending there, right? [00:22:00] That, , the point of doing the sport is just to be the best, right? And to be good at it and, , not to experience, you know, all the things that it has to offer and that other things might have to offer. And I think this does trap into a deeper sense of our, basic approach to the educational system because, you know, I don’t know, you, you kind of hit it at 10.

[00:22:20] Lorraine Besser: It’d be interesting to do a study on when this happens, but at a certain point, you know, children who just by by nature, experience so much psychological richness. Right. Where, you know, think about the curiosity that, , you know, young children are driven by. Think about the ways in which they, .

[00:22:39] Lorraine Besser: Just so easily find novelty and, , are learning to appreciate all of the things around them. Imaginative play of creativeness, all of these things. We at some point tell them aren’t important and should take the backseat , and we tell them that striving for things and engaging our minds in this very focused way [00:23:00] is more important and that that’s what ought to be the emphasis in their lives.

[00:23:04] Lorraine Besser: And It doesn’t have to be either one right. , there’s no reason why we can’t also cling to a lot of the importance of, keeping those childlike things that really will help us. A lot of what I talk about with, with having interesting experiences like be like a child again, right? Go back to that point where everything’s new, everything is, , a source of wonder and, you’re really creative and you can kind of play with ideas and.

[00:23:28] Lorraine Besser: think about things So, yeah, I, I agree, ,, that we’re not doing our children any favor within our school system, within our approach to extracurricular activities that we’re really starting from the very beginning to limit their range of experiences , and to suggest. That only a certain kind of experience, right?

[00:23:47] Lorraine Besser: One that you can be the best at, one that you can succeed at is gonna be the valuable one. And that’s just not true. I mean, we all know that’s just not true, but, but somehow that’s what we’re teaching our children , and that’s something to be [00:24:00] aware of.

[00:24:02] Jonathan DeYoe: Oh, scary. A little bit of aside, so I think that there’s, it’s not just how we’re raised, it’s not just the educational system. It’s, there’s, there’s a lot in modern life that I think gets in the way of, gets between. Us and the psychologically

[00:24:14] Jonathan DeYoe: rich life.,

[00:24:15] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m wondering if social media, we, we brag about how busy we are.

[00:24:20] Jonathan DeYoe: We brag about, you know, how much we have going on. We brag about, you know, the new car, this stuff, and so what other things in modern life keep us from living this psychological richness.

[00:24:34] Lorraine Besser: Yeah, so clearly social media is. these kind of themes that are implicit with society and kind of making them explicit, right? As we are just saying, oh, look what I got. Look what I accomplished, look who I am. , but I, I think that there are a lot of aspects of our society that, . Push us in this direction away from interesting experiences.

[00:24:58] Lorraine Besser: And I, I think that, you know, there’s [00:25:00] a culture of busyness, within certainly many work environments and within lives more generally. Speaking from a co you know this Yeah. Me, yeah. I, my environment is like this, but I try to resist it. But there is a culture of busyness and within society, we recognize and reward people who have really accomplished things.

[00:25:21] Lorraine Besser: And so it is all but impossible not to think that that is, you know, the most important thing that we can do is, is achieve this purpose and, and do that. And of course there are, those who push back against it, uh, but they’re, they’re pushing it back against it. More in the direction of just happy experiences, which are, which are safe and kind of easy and, and come, you know, naturally under the right conditions.

[00:25:49] Lorraine Besser: And yet there is still a way to push ourselves right? To, you know, to tap into our natures and, and to engage in complexity and challenge, right? [00:26:00] Just, you don’t have to do that for the sake of getting somewhere, right. Just do it for its own sake, which, which is the message here , with these really complicated scenarios or challenges facing in our lives.

[00:26:12] Lorraine Besser: , and do that in a way that you know, isn’t just conquering.

[00:26:19] Jonathan DeYoe: So this is, again, I’m going down a different aside. I have a really close friend of mine who’s, who’s part of a, a, like a men’s group that I’m in and , since the pandemic, he’s kind of been limited in his ways of outreach and like we met, I. A couple months ago, and he said, you know what, I’ve started going to yoga classes and this is not a guy that does yoga.

[00:26:38] Jonathan DeYoe: He is not a guy that exercises in public, not a guy. And we were all just like, oh, good job. That is awesome. So like, that’s so impressive. And he, he, you know, he’s, he goes a couple times a week. He has a, he has a great time doing it. He’s, you know, improving his health and all these things. But it strikes me that that’s the kind of thing that you’re talking about.

[00:26:55] Jonathan DeYoe: It’s do something new, see what happens. , and we all have [00:27:00] these things that we want it to do. Like I’ve always wanted learn how to scuba dive. I’ve always wanted to learn how to, you know, there’s other things. , so having done that, does that strengthen the muscle that allows us to do more of that?

[00:27:11] Jonathan DeYoe: Have you done research in that particular thing? I do it once. I have a good experience, I wanna do it

[00:27:16] Jonathan DeYoe: again.

[00:27:16] Lorraine Besser: Yeah. we don’t have the research on that. , but it’s so intuitive, right? And, and I think it’s kind of like, you know, busting the bubble kind of thing, right? Like once you do it once and, realize, I. What you’re benefiting from then you’re gonna be more apt to do it again.

[00:27:31] Lorraine Besser: And I think this is, you know, getting back to the kind of experiences, you know, putting your money on experiences or things right. I think as soon as you start to give it a shot and, and kind of see what happens , when you . Put your bonus towards an experience rather than a new card that you may not need.

[00:27:49] Lorraine Besser: And I think that’s a really important way to kind of get a feel for what we’re talking about here , and to understand it for yourself. So then , once you kind of experience the rewards that can [00:28:00] come, then you’ll go after it.

[00:28:03] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, I I have a coach who used to say, what, what gets measured gets done, and just, you referenced this a second ago about. How culturally or or individually our, our parents are teaching us how to do this. , you pursue the thing that gets you the reward. you you pursue the thing that we measure.

[00:28:19] Jonathan DeYoe: And so if we measure success financially, which I think we all at least partially do, , and if, if that becomes , the litmus test for I am successful and we all want to be successful, then we all focus on. Meaning and purpose and personal growth and success and money. And so I’m, I’m just curious if in the research, any of the survey questions were around money or about success or is it, or, or, or not?

[00:28:48] Lorraine Besser: They were not,

[00:28:49] Lorraine Besser: uh, about, about money or success. a lot of them were more about kind of, again, getting at these correlations right. , and thinking about the kind of [00:29:00] distinctive, you know, so what is really distinctive about somebody who prioritizes meaning within their lives, right? To, and yes, one of those distinctions is probably something what they’re doing with their money but yeah, that we haven’t.

[00:29:12] Lorraine Besser: Done the initial questionnaires did not contain things like success

[00:29:17] Lorraine Besser: or this, but, , there certainly was a lot of, you know, speaking of like valuing right to valuing achievements. and so I think they’re getting at success indirectly without, you know, speaking explicitly to it.

[00:29:32] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. So, , simplify this for us. , if you were to sort of come across, you know, sitting on a cross town bus and you’re sitting, when you strike a conversation with somebody, I. What’s one thing that they could do today that would improve the psychological richness of their lives

[00:29:46] Jonathan DeYoe: tomorrow?

[00:29:47] Lorraine Besser: yeah, yeah. Well, they =could strike up a conversation with a stranger, that’s for sure. Um, and, uh, but, uh, so that’s a, I mean, that is a great way of. Just getting up. , who knows, right? You’re [00:30:00] just striking up a conversation with a stranger. , but I think, , beyond that, right, , the sitting on the bus example is great, right?

[00:30:06] Lorraine Besser: So often like we all have commutes and our commutes are always. You know, they’re taking us to a place , that we need to go to and they’re regular, right? So we don’t have to pay attention to any of the things to get there. Right? We just kind of go through the motions, whether it’s driving or getting on your bus or whatever it is, right?

[00:30:23] Lorraine Besser: You don’t have to think a lot about it, and it’s really tempting in this scenarios just in. To just not think right. To and, and just end up in the place you are. And I think these moments are real wasted times, right? I, I think it’s the power of interesting experiences actually really heavily to fill in these wasted moments is you can, instead of just checking out on the bus or thinking about what’s gonna happen later on in your day, you can look out the window, , and you can start to notice.

[00:30:52] Lorraine Besser: Different things. And , you can force yourself to be curious. You can just say, well, why is that person right there? Or Why are so many [00:31:00] people at that bus stop? And were they there last time? And, , things like that. Right? Taking your mind on an exploration and really trying to actively engage

[00:31:08] Lorraine Besser: to really notice what’s going on. And noticing is the first step if we don’t notice things, then our mind won’t engage. And so actively making these steps to look outside the window, , you’ve driven the same drive forever, right? But you can find something new.

[00:31:24] Lorraine Besser: And, , I always use , this example, and I’m sitting in an office that I’ve occupied for, you know. 17 years, and I guarantee you I can have an interesting experience looking around and just by noticing what’s in there and bringing some curiosity to.

[00:31:42] Jonathan DeYoe: Hmm. Is it enough to passively notice or do you then have to take the step of you see something and then doing

[00:31:50] Jonathan DeYoe: something I.

[00:31:51] Lorraine Besser: Well, I think it, it helps to actively to notice things and then actively bring curiosity to it, and especially as we’re trying to [00:32:00] learn or get a feel for this. So, yeah, I think the more active we can be, , in prompting some kind of engagement and giving our mind , something to work with, , the better.

[00:32:09] Lorraine Besser: , but in some instances, I don’t think that the act of trying to bring curiosity, you know, I don’t think that those things are always necessary. There are some situations that just. We’ll force engagement. And, , so when you’re in a novel situation, your mind has to do it.

[00:32:24] Lorraine Besser: When you’re dealing with a complex situation, your mind’s gotta tap in. And when you’re dealing with challenges, you know, your mind’s gotta tap in. And so , that’s why these things are so heavily correlated with psychological richness because , they force the engagement. but very often we’re.

[00:32:41] Lorraine Besser: Sitting on the bus right, with nothing new. , and so we have to find something new. And then we have to bring some curiosity to it, , and that’ll get us rolling on the right track, and then it’ll become effortless. You’ll just notice things and you’ll be curious and you’ll have interesting experiences all around you.

[00:32:57] Jonathan DeYoe: It sounds exciting. I usually, I’m not gonna ask [00:33:00] this question. , I’m gonna make a suggestion and, and ask you to say yes or no. Usually I ask people, Hey, what’s one thing that people are, are doing that they should stop doing? That might lead to more, psychological richness, but instead it just hit me that most of us don’t go to the store to shop. Anymore. Like now we order from Amazon, it comes to our door. And that experience in the store where you sat in the line and maybe somebody said something to you in the line or you, you saw a news story and you made a under your breath comment and somebody responded, if we went to the store more, stopped ordering from Amazon so much, would that actually boost our psychological richness in our

[00:33:38] Lorraine Besser: I really think it would. Yeah. And you

[00:33:41] Lorraine Besser: know, even, even as simple as going to the grocery store, which I really do not enjoy. I mean, I, I prefer to order online, but what I miss out by doing that, you know, is when you’re doing it online, you can just like directly punch in the cereal you want and find it.

[00:33:56] Lorraine Besser: But what you’re missing out is then the experience of sitting and [00:34:00] looking at all these. The cereal and, and noticing all of the, the colors and the, and, and the things. And again, you got this revolves space, right? So if you’re going to the store, you gotta give yourself the space to, to notice these things.

[00:34:14] Lorraine Besser: , but it will be, it, it could certainly be, , more sources of, interesting experiences. The more we. Put ourselves out there and, and go to stores where, where we have to choose. We have to consider different options and, and look at them. And, and,

[00:34:28] Lorraine Besser: and if we bring some kind of openness to that right then, then we could have an interesting experience there.

[00:34:35] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, like the, the onset of the internet. It took us all home and we go out less because of it.

[00:34:42] Jonathan DeYoe: And

[00:34:42] Jonathan DeYoe: that, you know,

[00:34:43] Jonathan DeYoe: if we’re not engaging with other people, we’re not having as, as psychologically

[00:34:46] Jonathan DeYoe: rich a

[00:34:46] Jonathan DeYoe: life. Does that seem

[00:34:47] Lorraine Besser: Yeah, I think so. Or, and with the world, right? And with the world more generally. Right. I mean, the, the more we’re, the more we’re at home, the harder it is.

[00:34:57] Jonathan DeYoe: For sure. Just we’re getting close , to the end [00:35:00] here. Just for wrap up, I wanna ask a couple more personal things. first One is, what was the last thing you changed your mind about?

[00:35:07] Lorraine Besser: Oh, wow. Um, let me see.

[00:35:09] Lorraine Besser: Yeah, I’m thinking of boring things. I mean, I.

[00:35:13] Jonathan DeYoe: Some of the really boring, some of the answers are like, um, the cereal I wanted to have this morning for

[00:35:19] Lorraine Besser: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. , Those are easy ones. But um, yeah, I change my mind all the time about those kinds of things and, I often change my mind about where to spend my day. . You know, there’s some days I have to be in a classroom and some days I don’t. And so I do actually. Often, , plan to stay home and then change my mind because it’s really boring and I’m not engaging.

[00:35:45] Lorraine Besser: And, , alternatively, I’ll , be stuck in the office and, find that I need to get out of there. I do have a sensitivity to my, my place and, and what they’re

[00:35:54] Lorraine Besser: doing for me. And that’s gonna lead me to change my mind a lot , and I think that’s really important that, that’s one of the things [00:36:00] that I, that I talk a lot about in the book is just the flexibility to, to move between different kinds of experiences and the importance of being aware of, of what you’re getting, you know, at all times.

[00:36:11] Lorraine Besser: And if you’re getting nothing, right, if I’m in the office getting nothing, then, then leave.

[00:36:19] Jonathan DeYoe: Wow. , I’m curious about the answer to this question from an academic, if you could get the truth about any single question about your life or your future, I, I can’t give you the answer, but what would you ask?

[00:36:29] Lorraine Besser: Oh, I would ask if my kids are gonna be okay. Mm-hmm. If I could get the truth about anything that, that’s what I want. That’s, that’s what I want. Yeah.

[00:36:38] Jonathan DeYoe: For sure totally shared. I, I feel the same way. , and I’ve gotten that answer multiple times. Anyone with kids is like, oh my God, what about the kids? Tell everyone how they can find , where they find your book, how they connect with you, , where are you online or et

[00:36:50] Jonathan DeYoe: cetera.

[00:36:51] Lorraine Besser: Yeah, thank you. So you can find my book anywhere books are sold, online or in your bookshops and you can find out more about [00:37:00] me@lorrainebesser.com and on social media. And, you know, I’m easily findable in all of the, the normal ways of finding people on social media. So I’m on LinkedIn is a heavy place for me and Instagram.

[00:37:13] Jonathan DeYoe: Wonderful. Well, we’re gonna put all that in the show notes. I just wanna say I, I really enjoyed the conversation. I love the book. I would recommend everyone go out and get a copy and read it, see what they’re doing wrong in terms of seeking the good life. Um, Dr. Bester, thanks for being

[00:37:25] Jonathan DeYoe: on the

[00:37:25] Lorraine Besser: Yeah. Thank you.

[00:37:27] Outro: Thanks for listening. Full show notes for each episode, which includes a summary, key takeaways, quotes, and any resources mentioned are available at Mindful Money. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. And if you’re enjoying the content and getting value from these episodes, please leave us a rating and review ratethispodcast.com/mindfulmoney. We’ll be sure to read those out on future [00:38:00] episodes.