Maggie Jackson — The Hidden Power of Uncertainty: Why Not Knowing Is a Strength

[00:00:00] Maggie Jackson: It’s so important that we’re open to uncertainty. People who are intolerant are also more highly at risk for mental disorders because as one psychologist told me, if you have trouble with uncertainty, you have trouble with life. It’s really clear that being tolerant of uncertainty is a better way to go.

[00:00:23] Intro: Do you think money takes up more life space than it should? On this show, we discuss with and share stories from artists, authors, entrepreneurs, and advisors about how they mindfully minimize the time and energies. Spent thinking about money. Join your host, Jonathan DeYoe, and learn how to put money in its place and get more out of life.

[00:00:56] Jonathan DeYoe: Hey there. Welcome back On this episode of The Mindful Money Podcast. I’m [00:01:00] chatting with Maggie Jackson. Maggie’s an award-winning author and journalist. She’s well known for her deep writing on social trends. She’s a former columnist for the Boston Globe. She contributes for the New York Times among other major publications worldwide, translated in lots of different languages.

[00:01:15] I wanted to have her on the show after reading her new book, Uncertain: The Wisdom and Wonder of Being Unsure. I love that. The Wonder of Being Unsure. , it’s been nominated for the National Book Award, named to multiple best of 2023 lists and is a selection of the Next Big Idea Club, led, led by none of the Malcolm Gladwell, Dan Pink, Adam Grant, and Susan Kane.

[00:01:37] In the book, Maggie explores why we should seek not knowing in an era of just massive change. Maggie, welcome to the Mindful Money Podcast.

[00:01:45] Maggie Jackson: Thank you for having me. Exciting to be with you.

[00:01:48] Jonathan DeYoe: This is a great book. I’ve sort of been waiting for this book. I’ve been a Buddhist and a meditator for many, many years. This fits right in, I love it. First, where do you call home? , where are you connecting from?

[00:01:59] Maggie Jackson: Uh, yes. [00:02:00] Right now I’m in, , rural Rhode Island, , on the east coast of the US and by the shore. And , then I also divide my time between here and New York City. I.

[00:02:10] Jonathan DeYoe: Okay. Where? Where’d you grow up?

[00:02:12] Maggie Jackson: I grew up outside of Boston

[00:02:14] in a suburb of Boston.

[00:02:16] Jonathan DeYoe: So I, I mentioned this before, , that we started, but one of the goals of the Mindful Money Podcast is to sort of normalize the incredibly uncertain money conversation. , so the first few questions we always , go over might be a surprise since you didn’t listen to, you, didn’t get a chance to listen to an episode.

[00:02:30] , believe me, it all comes together at the end, right? So , what did you learn about money and entrepreneurship growing up?

[00:02:36] Maggie Jackson: Ah, well, my parents were teachers and so I learned almost nothing about money and entrepreneurship growing up. I learned that they were both depression era, , you know, children of the Depression. And so I did learn to value money and to be frugal, and not to be, , careless with money. , but as far as [00:03:00] making money or being entrepreneurial, , it wasn’t really in the flavor of our household.

[00:03:06] Jonathan DeYoe: Hmm. can you name like an experience that you had with money with a parent that became sort of integral to your money story today? Have you ever thought about that?

[00:03:17] Maggie Jackson: No, um, except that. My parents were very interested in education.

[00:03:23] They weren’t, loving the public school system in which they taught, , when I was growing up. And so they sent my sister and I to a private school, a day student of half an hour away. , on scholarship. , so I would say the idea that. , merit can be important and eagerness to learn can be important, more important than money, or that at least it, that there can be a non-monetary ticket to, , learning and education and advancement in the world. That was a [00:04:00] very important lesson for me.

[00:04:02] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Education as, as central for sure. Just to level set, I want to sort of dip into the book a little bit. , first define uncertainty. Like what does it mean to be uncertain?

[00:04:14] Maggie Jackson: I.

[00:04:14] think that’s a great starter question. because we use that term and that word, you know, almost randomly, , in life today. It’s sort of a household word for angst and for I. Unpredictability and basically there are two main kinds of uncertainty. So, , , it makes it pretty easy. There’s, uh, scientists now agree that there is the uncertainty out there, which is called atory uncertainty. That’s. What we call, um, you know, the unpredictability, the volatility, you know, the most of what business and economics and financial talk refers to when they’re talking about uncertainty is that, , and it’s also important to note that’s what humans can’t know, [00:05:00] you know? So we might have mathematical modeling and. Um, you know, probabilistic reasoning and we can get likelihood and we can , , assess risk. , but there are things we don’t know, you know, where the storm will hit or what the stock markets will do two years from now. , and secondly, there’s our psychological uncertainty and that is basically the human response.

[00:05:21] To the unknown. , so that’s everything from being unsure or being in doubt, or being skeptical or being curious. , and these are states of mind and elements of thinking, , that haven’t really been studied much, , previously , in scientific neural ways, which is fascinating. , and one thing I’ll add also about epistemic or our uncertainty, , is that basically it. Occurs when we encounter anything new, unexpected, or ambiguous.

[00:05:52] So most, in most of our days, we can sail through life knowing that, you know, I know how to make a cup of coffee and I [00:06:00] predict my house is in the same spot as when I left this morning. And we, we live, you know, expecting, assuming, predicting, but when something happens, I see a tiger in my front yard when I return from work. Whoa. Something unexpected. Then you. Realize that you have reached the limits of your knowledge, , that suddenly you need to update your understanding of the world. And there, that’s a form of unsureness. , that carries the hint of kind of possibilities. You know, it could be that a local circus, , had a tiger who escaped.

[00:06:33] It could be, I should not get out of my car. You know, it could be this, it could, that, those possibilities are inherent in uncertainty.

[00:06:41] Jonathan DeYoe: Mm. So what, why is it important for us to think about uncertainty now? I, I, is there something changed culturally or is there something new? Why? Why now?

[00:06:49] Maggie Jackson: Well, I would say for two important reasons. First of all, we inhabit, especially in the West, a culture built upon hundreds of years of [00:07:00] venerating and admiring efficiency and speed. I mean, that’s how industrialization occurred, and capitalism and accounting and all sorts of wonderful. Creations. , but this veneration of speed and efficiency and then the technologies that augment and exacerbate , these value systems, , have led to costs.

[00:07:21] I mean, the, there are costs to living in a world where, you know, outcome is everything and process kind of gets forgotten. , , there’s a cost of course to living on one tempo, speedy, to thinking of efficiency even when it. Is in terms of dealings with humans or dealings with intangibles like love or care, etc ROI, about caring or teaching. , so , it’s really important right now to understand that uncertainty, , is, . Something that we have overlooked in many, many different ways. but yet now there are new scientific discoveries that show it is not [00:08:00] negative necessarily. It is not a disaster. It’s not weakness, inertia, etc And so in our contemporary society, I think we need uncertainty as a form of breaks, as a form of counterpoint, to ultra-efficiency 24/7 living.

[00:08:16] And the second important reason why. This topic is so timely and why people are so hungry and so curious and so interested, in the topic is because there is a new science. So, in the research for this book, I would turn to the, you know, business journals and, and I’d find an editorial saying, why haven’t we been talking about uncertainty? or the medical world is waking up to the fact that. Doctors haven’t really been taught how to navigate the unknown. They’ve been taught that they should be certain, and that’s what expertise is. So I say now that we are kind of on the cusp. Of a seismic shift in the human approach to not knowing. And, and I know [00:09:00] of course, that ancient wisdom has been, you know, really studying this for years and years, years of Buddhism and, and other strands of ancient wisdom and, , Arabic thought and, and et cetera. But, , I think in many contemporary cultures. Some of the lessons of the past, , have been lost or, , haven’t been fully realized.

[00:09:25] And then also, , some of our contemporary living, , sort of puts on not knowing on a back seat. so now’s the chance.

[00:09:34] Jonathan DeYoe: Maybe this is more strong in the West than it is maybe in the eastern cultures, but why do we think we should know? Like why, why do we think that certainty is so important? Where does that need come from?

[00:09:45] Maggie Jackson: Well, it, it’s important

[00:09:47] to know I’m less and less convinced having written this book, , that certainty, , is important. , in fact, I think the opposite. Increasingly, , it’s important to know in order to [00:10:00] survive. So one reason humans.

[00:10:03] Flat out dislike uncertainty is because we need and want answers. So if you’re lost in the forest, you need to know if the fruit is poisonous or delicious. You know, you need to know if your new boss is going to be good for your career or. Complicate things you want and need to know. That’s one reason we dislike it. , and as I travel around and give speeches, , and talks and, and meet people and, discuss uncertainty, I often ask people a little snap poll.

[00:10:34] , what is the one word that comes to mind when I say uncertainty? And so, you know, show of hands, the first word that comes up almost invariably. Is anxiety. The second is often, , lost being lost or chaos or so in long story short, and the research shows this as well, humans are aversive, the humans dislike it.

[00:10:59] But, but that’s [00:11:00] natural. You know, it’s, it’s natural. , what’s I think concerning is that we’re pushing this innate dislike. To a kind of allergy

[00:11:09] as a result of this contemporary emphasis on speed in efficiency, et cetera that I’m mentioning. So to deny or avoid uncertainty. Is costly and actually sets us back in so many ways and narrows us as human beings, as thinkers, but to dislike it, to see it as a challenge.

[00:11:29] In fact, there’s a personality trait. We can talk about this in more in length, but anyhow, I’ll throw it out. There’s a personality trait that’s getting a lot of attention called. Tolerance of uncertainty, just like you or I might be more or less shy. , if we are tolerant of uncertainty, open to uncertainty.

[00:11:46] We see it as a challenge, not a picnic. That’s important, but as a challenge, if you’re really intolerant. Which means you’re kind of rigid and you dislike surprises and you try to deny and avoid [00:12:00] things that are unexpected. If you’re, , that intolerant of uncertainty, you see it as a threat. So that’s pretty

[00:12:08] Jonathan DeYoe: we, when we look at like, I dunno, social media, when we look at culture, it seems at least there’s this perception or appearance that certainty leads to more socioeconomic rewards. Is that a fair characterization?

[00:12:22] Maggie Jackson: Yes, I think that. Certainty has been seen increasingly as synonymous with success.

[00:12:30] so there are studies out of Columbia University, , that showed people videos of, business leaders and political leaders, who were grappling with new. Situations and if the leader paused deliberately in public to think for a minute to reflect. the participants, the viewers, rated those leaders , as less inf influential [00:13:00] as less influential as a leader. So there you have it, you know, the public perception of a moment’s reflection, a moment’s lingering in uncertainty. You know, is negative and we can find evidence of this everywhere.

[00:13:15] We expect our TV pundits to be absolutely sure. We really love to think in binary ways. You can see this in the media or in just in. Discussions around the kitchen table, you know, are you for, are you against? And, and that’s human, you know, to categorize. Again, that’s useful and human, but not to an extreme. , so I think that, , yeah, we very much see. Uncertainty is weakness. And so I speak to leaders and, , fortune 100 C-suite type leaders, and they don’t feel as though they can express uncertainty, or everyone, you know, across hierarchies of organizations. Tell me, well, , we are under pressure to [00:14:00] know, , and this is clear even in the classroom where evidence shows that teachers give students. Mere seconds to respond before they give the answer. So where are the spaces again, in some ways it goes back to that idea of is it, is life really, you know, lived well on one tempo speed? I mean, where are the rhythms of life? Where’s the ability to digest, percolate, and then, , curate our thinking.

[00:14:30] Jonathan DeYoe: is some of that, , is there some kind of human brain chemistry that says, , , I prefer the person who knows, versus the person who seems to ask questions like, is it brain chemistry? Is it preference? Is it learned? Is it,, why do we attribute power with certainty and weakness with uncertainty?

[00:14:48] Maggie Jackson: Well, I would say the, the predominant reason is cultural. , you know, contemporary living has narrowed the definition of what it means to know or what it means to be successful, , [00:15:00] to a, you know, a very, , narrow ideal of . Instant answers, ultra decisiveness, et cetera. , one story that illustrates this is that, , I came across a study that had won awards and is considered really pioneering, , out of organizational management.

[00:15:18] And this study, . Basically was trying to assess CEOs who are going through a long-term, major crisis, which was the expansion of the eu. So these are European CEOs and two professors decided to study. Well, I. Who did best under this high pressure situation? Was it the CEOs who thought , this change would be good for their company?

[00:15:44] Or was it the CEOs who thought this would be terrible for their company? You know, which was a good response? Well, to the professors, utter shock. They found that there was a group of CEOs in the mix who were ambivalent. I don’t know. Is it going to be good [00:16:00] for my. Company to have this marketplace expansion and new customers, et cetera, or will it be bad?

[00:16:05] The ambivalent CEOs were the ones who are more resourceful a year later and more inclusive. , so again, the response to the business professors kind of shows, I mean, , one professor literally told me that they thought the data about the. Superior performance of ambivalent leaders. They thought , that data was a fluke.

[00:16:25] They ran it over and over again. They couldn’t even believe that there were ambivalent leaders in the mix. I mean, that’s to you know how much we’ve shoved ambivalence under the rug as something not even to be studied, much less to be respected and admired. , so I think that it’s predominantly cultural, but , again, personality might. , also factor in, if you are highly intolerant of uncertainty, well then you will want to, , follow or, , admire the, the, the person who’s most certain.

[00:16:58] , and in fact, [00:17:00] the little fun fact out of the history of this science is that After World War ii, psychologists were searching, searching, searching, for the key to the authoritarian personality, mainly the people who followed authority, you know, strongmen. , and so in experimenting in this kind of ballpark of questioning, one psychologist found. Of the personality trait of intolerance, of uncertainty. The people who are intolerant, , she said Elsa Frankl, Brunswick was her name in the mid-century, found, , that people who are intolerant of uncertainty, , quote, preferred to escape into the definite. And, you know, these are people who

[00:17:45] want those clear answers.

[00:17:48] , and yet, , it’s so important that we’re. Open to uncertainty. It’s so important that people who are intolerant are also more highly at [00:18:00] risk for mental disorders because

[00:18:02] as one psychologist told me, if you have trouble with uncertainty, you have trouble with life.

[00:18:09] , so it’s, it’s really clear that being tolerant of uncertainty is a better way to go.

[00:18:17] Jonathan DeYoe: let’s talk about the individual. We, we sort of cultural underpinnings, but individual choices and individual matters, right? So I’ve read enough, , phenomenology and epistemology to sort of support a general belief that nobody really is certain about anything. Like there’s people that.

[00:18:30] Express certainty, but they really don’t know. , so turning to individuals and for the development of better selves, why can’t we see that certainty is actually rare or is potentially impossible? Like we can’t really be certain about anything and we, we are just lurching from uncertainty to uncertainty.

[00:18:49] How come we can’t even see that?

[00:18:51] Maggie Jackson: Well, I mean, I think the whole package of everything we’ve discussed points us in the direction, toward believing that certainty [00:19:00] is what we want out of life. And I’ve tried to. Push back on that. People will ask me, aren’t you certain that your family loves you or that you love your family? And aren’t you certain that you, you know, know about the topic of uncertainty?

[00:19:16] And, and I have really tried to counter that language with saying that you can have conviction and yet. Yet be open to life’s changes. You can be absolutely convinced that, , it’s important to fight for the rights of vulnerable people, however you define that. And yet. You can be uncertain about the best way forward, , your assumptions and your certainty or your conviction can be even jolted and you can learn from something new that just happened to you that day or over time.

[00:19:57] So conviction. Is not [00:20:00] certainty. And similarly with matters of love or value systems, I can need and want solidity, I I grew up in a kind of precarious household situation with a lot of insecurity and around things like that. I do love solidity. We all do. I love routines. I love, , the predictability of knowing certain things will happen. , you know, I, I love soup, so I want soup in my life and, and things like that. We want solidity. We want terra firma. In fact, , , it’s important to note that. I mentioned we need and want answers for survival’s sake, but ,, it’s also important to say that. There are guardrails around uncertainty.

[00:20:45] I’m not espousing living in limbo. No one should want to do that. There’s a guardrail around the degree or extent of uncertainty. There’s also a guardrail, , societally around I. , , the degree or the [00:21:00] type of uncertainty we should never want, and I would never want anyone to be uncertain about , you know, their next meal or the roof over their head. , so at the same time, , we can seek uncertainty and yet benefit from and, . Really, you know, build our lives upon conviction, solidity, , some measure of predictability. It said, so you see the, these are nuanced kinds of distinctions, but they’re very important for us to keep in mind.

[00:21:32] Jonathan DeYoe: you’re allowed your beliefs and your convictions, but hold them lightly. I’ve

[00:21:35] heard that. I’ve heard that expressed right.

[00:21:37] Maggie Jackson: Yes.

[00:21:38] Jonathan DeYoe: So what, what else is in it for us? Like, let’s say we just, I’m gonna embrace uncertainty. , what’s in it for me to embrace uncertainty? I.

[00:21:45] Maggie Jackson: Well, there’s so many gifts and benefits of what I call the wisdom of uncertainty, that it’s hard to even know where to start. it’s one of the most wonderful findings and most sort of liberating [00:22:00] findings, , in the new science of uncertainty, , is the fact that. Uncertainty is good stress. So this is extremely important because. We often conflate uncertainty with the negative, and particularly with fear, with anxiety. Uncertainty makes us anxious. Well, actually, if you look closely at the neuroscience of uncertainty, you’ll see that, well, first of all, when you meet up with something new that tiger, et cetera, you are uneasy.

[00:22:32] That’s your body’s way of. Goading you to get an answer, but at the same time that unease is actually turns out to be a stress response. So your, you know, neurotransmitters and hormones cascade through your system and create a whole lot of sometimes classic stress symptoms like racing heart, but also changes in the brain that are really only recently beginning to be discovered.

[00:22:59] For [00:23:00] instance, when you’re unsure. , your working memory goes up, your mind becomes more receptive to new data. Your attention sharpens. So scientists call this a form of arousal. , you know, you sort of related to the attentional skill of alerting. , , I call it wakefulness and I think it sheds light on what mindfulness is, this present orientation.

[00:23:23] So it’s really a signal that’s. What scientists call uncertainty. It’s a signal that the time for routine has ended and now you get the chance to recognize you’ve reached the limits of your knowledge and you can now learn and perform. So your whole body and brain are readying you to learn and perform. So this is important for many, many different reasons, but also because. The arousal response of uncertainty is distinct, literally physiologically from the fear response. When you’re fearful of that [00:24:00] tiger and quivering and et cetera, you are, , going into kind of an ability to flight, flee, or fight. , but you can’t really think, well, you know, your system, cognitive higher order systems are shutting down, , so that you can do simple reactivity. that’s not great for thinking about complex things. When you’re uncertain, you’re opening up to the situation and you’re actually on your toes, which is fascinating.

[00:24:26] It’s very liberating to know that you can lean into the unease of uncertainty, and it’s helpful.

[00:24:32] Jonathan DeYoe: , are those two reactions? Is that, is that, um, Kahneman’s, , type one, type two? Is that what we’re talking about?

[00:24:39] Maggie Jackson: No, that’s different really. These are really, , different systems of, you know, stress responses. , so that kahneman’s type two is the higher order thinking That then, then can be, , that the uncertainty is setting you up. To reflect, to do that sort of slow thinking. , [00:25:00] the intuitive heuristic thinking that’s his system.

[00:25:03] One, the quick thinking is not, it’s not the only type of quick thinking, but that’s, , a kind of, , what you use in routine, your past knowledge allows you to make an assumption. And so it’s, related to, , intuitive thinking that is. , you know, good and predictable situations, , whereas uncertainty is the, it’s really kind of the bridge between them

[00:25:30] It’s a really fascinating, , spur to move you into stance in which you can most readily think in complex ways, create, innovate, , learn, et cetera.

[00:25:45] Jonathan DeYoe: is there a moment where you know you’ve had an experience, maybe it’s the tiger in the front, in the front yard, and you either have the fear response or you have the. To have a thoughtful response. , and is there a way we can move ourselves to the [00:26:00] thoughtful response? Is there a way to note the moments and then go, okay, let’s go this way instead of go towards fear.

[00:26:05] Maggie Jackson: Yes, think, , and even, you know, even putting the deliberation aside, , but that’s very much a mode of uncertainty and action I call it too, but just thinking about, I. That moment when you’re uneasy, you’re unsure about what to do. Well, first of all, it’s very important to just pick up on that,

[00:26:27] , to be aware bodily and in your mind about the signal of uncertainty.

[00:26:34] So studies show. , in laboratories mostly, but, , when people are learning in dynamic environments, there are studies where they have to spot the kind of rock where a snake is hiding. And if they, they get a shock when the snake appears on the screen and all the sorts of things. But when people are learning in dynamic environments, if they actually go into this experiment. Expecting that there will be [00:27:00] change, then they learn better. So

[00:27:03] they’re setting themselves up. So if you walk into the Monday morning meeting thinking, oh, more of the same, blah, blah, blah, uh, and you just are intent on thinking that and wishing for predictability. , you will be less likely to pick up on the signal of uncertainty and less likely, therefore, to pick up on the changes, the nuances in the room.

[00:27:26] So just having the mindset that life is unpredictable, which is an openness to uncertainty, is important. The second thing is in challenging situations, , it’s really important not to focus too much on outcome. , so what do I mean by that? You know, if you’re giving a. Presentation and it’s a, a challenging one, and your boss is in the room and you’re worried about your performance review. , you might begin to think if someone’s glowing or you know, you kind of get tongue tied for a moment. You might begin to think, I’m failing. This is not going well. [00:28:00] Oh no. My performance review, if you can see that. The outcome fixation is undermining your ability to pick up and to lean into the arousal of uncertainty.

[00:28:11] You’re actually siphoning your cognitive resources out of the room and to the outcome instead of the process that gets you the good outcome.

[00:28:19] So just trying to. Be open to uncertainty, , to the chance it gives you to the, the arousal, , the good stress of uncertainty. And think, to be in the moment is very important. , if we’re going to, not fall prey to fear basically.

[00:28:37] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, I, I think that there’s a nice, this is where these two concepts kind of cross or the, this concept crosses with the mindfulness training. Because, you know, in the arc of mindfulness training, the goal is to sort of increase the window of tolerance. That you’re, you’re increasing , the things that, when they come at you, you can deal with them intelligently without, overreacting.

[00:28:59] [00:29:00] Thoughtfully, rather than, you know, falling into the fear category. , so that openness or that, that awareness is critical. I, I, you talk about. Curiosity, , a lot. Is this, what this is as sort of implementing curiosity at that moment rather than, ugh.

[00:29:13] Maggie Jackson: Well, yes. , uncertainty is very highly related , to curiosity, not just because being curious is kind of sticking your nose into the unknown. , so being open to the unknown, , but also for reasons related to this arousal response. And there’s a lot of work not just on the. Uncertainty tolerant personality, but also on the curious personality who is actively curious, who actually, , engages with questions , and asks, you know, dissenting questions at work and engages with difficult artworks and, you know, active explorers really.

[00:29:51] And these people tend to be. , also score high on a measure, , of tolerance for the stress of the unknown. So [00:30:00] it’s very much saying that they are open to uncertainty, , if they’re highly curious. And what’s really interesting is this measure of tolerance for the stress, for the discomfort of, , lingering in the unknown.

[00:30:12] That is also. Very related to wellbeing. That’s of all the kind of aspects of curiosity. , this tolerance of the stress of the unknown is the one most highly related to wellbeing. So therefore, these actively curious people who are open to the unknown , have more pleasurable moments in life. , they’re, you know, seen as being. open to exploration by friends and peers. , they are open to difficult conversations as well and learn from others. And so there’s a host of, , you know, really healthy, , ways of being that are related to being open to uncertainty and

[00:30:51] Curious at the same time,

[00:30:53] Jonathan DeYoe: Have you ever, you know, the prisoner’s dilemma.

[00:30:56] Maggie Jackson: a little bit, yes.

[00:30:58] Jonathan DeYoe: So we’re sort of in a very [00:31:00] competitive world, like the competition for resources in sports partners, wealth likes on social media. It kind of drives us as a species. , , so we all know that if we cooperate, it gets to better outcomes.

[00:31:12] However, there’s a setup problem, right? ’cause it’s a, this is the prisoner’s dilemma. We know that cooperation leads to better outcomes, but we never know what the other guy’s gonna do. That’s that uncertainty, right? And so how, how do we navigate that? It’s like every decision in life is a prisoner’s dilemma.

[00:31:29] Then like, how do we navigate? Or we’re uncertain about what the other person’s gonna do. We know we’re gonna be better if we all work together. How do I know they’re gonna, you know, how do you navigate that?

[00:31:38] Maggie Jackson: well, I think that with practice, you gain skill. , one of the interesting things about this personality trait of. Uncertainty tolerance is that , it’s actually now the basis of treatments for anxiety, successful treatments for anxiety and other mental challenges and disorders. , so [00:32:00] scientists and clinical psychologists, many, many are now developing exercises that help people practice. unknown, biting off a little more of the unknown each day. It’s really a kind of a riff on exposure therapy, which is

[00:32:16] fascinating. So I’m afraid of cats. I might be asked to sit next to a stuffed cat, a toy cat, and then to a kitten, and then to a cat and a cage, or on a leash. Et cetera, et cetera. I’m getting more used to the idea of cats in the world, and I’m also getting used to the idea that being with a cat is not the disaster I feared.

[00:32:38] Well, this is exactly what scientists are now , undertaking with tolerance of uncertainty as a laser focused. Intervention strategy. So what people are asked to do is try a new edition or restaurant, which is actually pretty hard to do. We like our familiar pasta, you know, I love that steak, whatever. , or one thing that [00:33:00] young people are asked to do is to answer their cell phone without screening,

[00:33:04] without caller id. don’t know. And so that was speaking to your, you know, the

[00:33:10] idea of the social unknown. , and so this is really interesting because, , I think that it, it underscores the fact that Simple daily steps can actually, I. In proven ways bolster our tolerance of uncertainty, which leads to mental wellbeing. And also studies have shown that these are early studies, more work needs to be done. But some really, again, gold standard studies have shown that these simple exercises help boost self-reported resilience.

[00:33:42] , even if you’re just stressed and you don’t have clinical anxiety. A little bit more of the unknown. Each day is really, really important, and so try a little of the unknown. You don’t have to be a bungee jumper overnight, or you don’t have to,

[00:33:58] you know, if you’ve [00:34:00] never been abroad, you don’t have to take a trip to a country where you don’t speak the language.

[00:34:04] I mean, wow, it’s not about overwhelming us, it’s literally about finding out that. , this kind of operating in the unknown, , has multiple possible outcomes that might possibly be negative. A cat might give you, , the evil eye one day, and that’s upsetting or even scratch you, but. Many times there are multiple different outcomes, not just a disaster.

[00:34:32] So , the beauty of this is you’re breaking your assumptions by using new exposure to uncertainty, , to open you up to further uncertainty. And it works.

[00:34:44] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. I love the whole idea. I mean, this is, this is part of the idea of, of daily meditation. You deal with the pain in your knee without moving. You deal with the sound and the questions. You just sit with it and let it be you allow it.

[00:34:55] That’s Tara Brach’s like saying, just allow whatever it is, allow, it’s all meditation. . Just [00:35:00] allow it. Just allow it. Just sit with it. It’s just so powerful, this idea of practicing uncertainty. I love it.

[00:35:05] Maggie Jackson: , I also just wanna add that

[00:35:07] there is a component of this all that I’m talking about, , that is being with or not being judgemental. , but there’s so much more. This is not about just, , detaching from action or observing our surroundings as important as those. Cognitive operations are, , uncertainty also is active.

[00:35:33] Uncertainty is something you wield like a tool. , it’s something that’s an ally to good thinking. , so you know, there’s a kind of a new discovery of higher echelons of expertise. Adaptive experts are the ones who. Utilize their uncertainty by being in a space of uncertainty, by pausing and just, you know, considering a problem, diagnosing a problem, [00:36:00] but also by being active in terms of how they investigate and diagnose a new predicament. , this is, you know, adaptive experts, as you were saying, hold their knowledge lightly. , but they also widen the problem and look at multiple PO possibilities. And I, I spent time in, Toronto operating rooms with surgeons, , in order to see how these adaptive experts operate versus routine experts who constantly. You know, fallback on their old knowledge, , they’re honed, knowhow, et cetera. , uncertainty is, I see it as, , a cognitive tool set in which we can turn to many, many different strategies and practices and gain skill. , so , , it’s partly sitting with the uncertainty, the unknown.

[00:36:50] , but I think it’s much more too, I.

[00:36:51] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, so there’s, , we’re gonna talk about application here in just one second. So there’s a lot of noise I ask every guest to sort of, , consider a scenario. [00:37:00] You’re on a flight, you’re cross country, you’re sitting next to somebody that has a, that has maybe a big decision life altering decision that they’re trying to make.

[00:37:06] , they don’t know which way, direction it’s gonna go. Maybe they’re thinking about a career change. Maybe they’re. Wondering about proposing, maybe it’s a CEO, gonna buy a company, whatever it’s Right. , what is one thing that they could focus on that will lead them to have a better choice? And then what’s one thing that maybe they are concerned about that they should just let go of that will give them a better choice?

[00:37:26] Maggie Jackson: Oh, okay. , vis-a-vis this uncertainty

[00:37:29] and they’re wielding their uncertainty.

[00:37:31] , well, I’d say, that they should one. Thing along, I’ll have to say along with understanding that the unease and stress of uncertainty is setting them up to learn and perform in good ways. And also say that it’s really important to, , give ourselves the space to. , you know, inhabit the question, , to this is what adaptive [00:38:00] experts do. , they, as I mentioned, widen the frame of the diagnosis of, you know, what is going on here. They look at multiple different possibilities, which is actually something that’s very rare to do. Studies show in, in when people are making big decisions. , this is more than just the pro and the con. , this is really. , listening to what the stories that the problem wants to tell rather than your assumptions. And then the second thing is, which is often forgotten, is to test and evaluate again, just briefly, , sort of test and evaluate. Each of those options.

[00:38:35] , you know, it could be, , in a medical way if you’re a practitioner, or it could be if you’re moving or deciding whether to move in with your girlfriend or, or your, your spouse , or your partner. , , , you want to just. Test , maybe by moving in for a couple of weeks and seeing what happens or test by writing down some of those pros and cons or et cetera, you evaluation.

[00:38:59] [00:39:00] So it’s really important , , to do, again, some of these active applications of, , uncertainty, , of productive, skillful uncertainty and, and practice it. More than just one. Sorry.

[00:39:12] And then what should they let go of,

[00:39:14] Jonathan DeYoe: yeah. What’s one thing that they’ve been taught or they’re trying and it’s not, and they, they should just let go of,

[00:39:20] Maggie Jackson: go with the gut? Let go of that.

[00:39:23] Jonathan DeYoe: let go of going with the gut.

[00:39:25] Maggie Jackson: Go with the gut, I think is one of the most misconceived popular. You know, pieces of advice floating around out there. The gut, your intuitive understanding of a situation is based on what was rewarding in the past. The reason it’s so quick and seems so Sure.

[00:39:45] Is because it’s very narrowly based on what you already know. The point of innovative thinking and to operating on the edge of what you know and to wielding uncertainty productively is to get beyond. [00:40:00] What’s worked in the past? , so I think going with your gut as Daniel Kahneman very much would agree, , is insufficient except in the most routine of situations. If I know, you know, that there are three restaurants in my town and on a tired, , Friday night I want to go to one with my husband, , I can go with my gut because I know it. , but in many complex situations. Your gut is your data point. It’s just the starter question.

[00:40:30] Jonathan DeYoe: Wow. That’s a great answer to that question. That’s one of the best answer to that question I think I’ve ever gotten. It’s so specific. I appreciate that. , before we wrap up, I’d like to go back to personal one more time. , this is not meant as a zinger. Some people go, Ooh. But, uh, I think you’ll, I think you’ll get this one really easily.

[00:40:44] So what was the last thing you changed your mind about?

[00:40:47] Maggie Jackson: Oh, last thing I changed my mind about, oh, well, I changed my mind so often that it’s really, that’s really, really hard. That’s so hard because literally my entire life is [00:41:00] changing my mind.

[00:41:01] Jonathan DeYoe: It is all uncertain, right?

[00:41:02] Maggie Jackson: what I do. Uh, I I start off writing a book thinking it’s about one thing, and then, seven years later I’m completely in a surprising place and it happens every single day of my life.

[00:41:14] , you know, I used to be a little bit more binary about eating and health and I was vegan and now I’m changing my mind and, you know, having a little butter and, kind of, you know, relaxed about that. , I’d say a more important example is that, uh.

[00:41:30] , I swim in the ocean almost every day, a year round, even in the winter. And I always wondered, why do I like this? Because I’m not that strong a swimmer. I don’t like high surf. , I don’t even like the cold that much. , but I discovered really that it was strengthening because it was my daily dose of uncertainty.

[00:41:51] So I guess in the long last few years, I would say I changed my mind about both the ocean and what I’m [00:42:00] capable of.

[00:42:01] Jonathan DeYoe: Wow, another good one. Maggie, thanks very much for coming on the Mindful Money Podcast. How do people connect with you?

[00:42:07] Maggie Jackson: Well, my website is up and has many, many resources, other interviews, articles, , book excerpts, et cetera. And you can also buy my book right on the website as well as my previous book, distracted. , so it’s maggie jackson.com, but just Google Maggie Jackson, uncertain and you’ll find me. Uh, and uh, yeah, that’s.

[00:42:28] Basically the starting place

[00:42:30] Jonathan DeYoe: And then , what is the next project? Distracted. Uncertain. What’s the next word you’re gonna work on?

[00:42:36] Maggie Jackson: I know, well, actually uncertain is the third in a trilogy. , my first book. Was about the nature of home and the digital age and where we can find refuge. So another topic that’s right under our noses and yet misunderstood, and then distraction and attention, and now uncertainty. So I’m not sure whether the trilogy will rest right there. But I am doing some research on, . [00:43:00] Different cultural understandings of uncertainty around the world and what we can learn, , both from other cultures and from peoples who inhabit uncertainty more, maybe more naturally, , or to higher degrees than we in the west knit.

[00:43:19] Jonathan DeYoe: Beautiful. I look forward to, if it’s an article or I’ll, I’ll find it and I, or a book, I’ll, I’ll find it. I’ll read it. I really appreciate the time. Maggie, thanks so much for coming on. This has been a great conversation.

[00:43:28] Maggie Jackson: My pleasure. Wonderful questions, and thank you for having me.

[00:43:31] Jonathan DeYoe: Absolutely.

[00:43:32] Outro: Thanks for listening. Full show notes for each episode, which includes a summary, key takeaways, quotes, and any resources mentioned are available at Mindful Money. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. And if you’re enjoying the content and getting value from these episodes, please leave us a rating and review at [00:44:00] ratethispodcast.com/mindfulmoney. We’ll be sure to read those out on future episodes.