Lindsay Barnett — Reclaiming Your Energy in a Culture of Overwork

[00:00:00] Lindsay Barnett: There are things that may not always work right, but how do we start to play with these possibilities of. Can I push the needle a little bit here? Can I, you know, create some energy for myself? Can I remove the concept of I’m just gonna power through? No, my body is feeling itchy. I can’t focus. I need to go take myself for a walk.

[00:00:26] Lindsay Barnett: Nobody knows I’m doing this right. But these are some of the things that we can give ourselves to support us in creating greater work life. Harmony doesn’t have to be a permission, Hey, can I go for a walk? No, just go do it. Right? What’s gonna happen?

[00:00:46] Intro: Do you think money takes up more life space than it should? On this show, we discuss with and share stories from artists, authors, [00:01:00] entrepreneurs, and advisors about how they mindfully minimize the time and energies. Spent thinking about money. Join your host, Jonathan DeYoe, and learn how to put money in its place and get more out of life.

[00:01:20] Jonathan DeYoe: Hey, welcome back on this episode of the Mindful Money Podcast.

[00:01:22] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m chatting with Lindsay Barnett. Lindsay has dedicated her career to transforming workplace cultures, leaders, teams, and individuals.

[00:01:31] Jonathan DeYoe: Over two decades, she’s had roles in lots of different fast-growing companies, advertising, biotech, consumer products, education. Most recently, she was the Head of Talent Development and Inclusion at Kite Pharma, a Gilead company, before starting Barnett Coaching a uh boutique coaching and consulting firm.

[00:01:51] Jonathan DeYoe: So I wanted to have Lindsay on the podcast to discuss her book, Working Hell to Working Well: Making Your Company work for You. Additionally, I dunno if we talk [00:02:00] about this today, but additionally, she’s the co-founder of Our Kind of Club,

[00:02:04] Jonathan DeYoe: an organization we’ve highlighted the newsletter for our readers, whose mission is to create a kinder and healthier world for all, which I’m for. Lindsay, welcome to the Mindful Money Podcast.

[00:02:14] Lindsay Barnett: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:02:16] Jonathan DeYoe: That’s quite the intro. There’s a lot of stuff going on. Before, before we dig in, where do you call home? where are you connecting from now?

[00:02:23] Lindsay Barnett: I am connecting from, Redondo Beach, California.

[00:02:27] Jonathan DeYoe: for those of you who don’t know, that’s Southern California.

[00:02:30] Lindsay Barnett: Yes. Outside of

[00:02:31] Jonathan DeYoe: yeah, outside la I’m in Northern California. the far better part of California.

[00:02:35] Lindsay Barnett: only you have that competition in the north. We’re not competing. It’s just like New Yorkers. I feel like they’re like LA and we’re like, whatever.

[00:02:46] Jonathan DeYoe: whatever. LA people. LA people are so chill, so chill.

[00:02:50] Lindsay Barnett: It’s just funny to me.

[00:02:52] Jonathan DeYoe: Where, where’d you grow up? Did you grow up in LA or,

[00:02:54] Lindsay Barnett: I did, I did grow up in la Yeah, so I was actually born and bred a Bruin, so literally born at UCLA [00:03:00] medical center. So it, it was a bit hard, but, you know, there are, there are good people all over.

[00:03:07] Jonathan DeYoe: what did you learn about money and entrepreneurship growing up?

[00:03:11] Lindsay Barnett: you know, it’s interesting because my dad, he was a physician, but in a lot of ways he was an entrepreneur because he had his own practice and, you know, different than maybe people who had business entrepreneurs as parents. he really created a life of service while still figuring out how to have fun, enjoy himself, right?

[00:03:44] Lindsay Barnett: So he really cared deeply about his patients, but he really made time for family, for fun, for play, all of those things. So. When I think of entrepreneurship, my father is one, I had my grandmother who [00:04:00] was an, an interior designer. She had her own store. she was an entrepreneur when a lot of women weren’t, entrepreneurs or business owners.

[00:04:11] Lindsay Barnett: So, from her, I think I really got the sense of. You know, you’ve gotta have grit and you’ve gotta be resourceful and things are going to go up and down and you gotta have a backup plan. So, I look at the two of them, at least from growing up as really primary role models, at least from a, you know, entrepreneurship lens.

[00:04:35] Lindsay Barnett: Obviously you had other, other role models in other ways, but you know, from an entrepreneurship perspective.

[00:04:42] Jonathan DeYoe: I love how you recognize that your father as a doctor. Was also an entrepreneur. Like, don’t necessarily, if you graduate from medical school, you don’t just get patients.

[00:04:52] Jonathan DeYoe: Like no one just says, here’s your roster of, that doesn’t

[00:04:55] Jonathan DeYoe: happen unless you are advisor or something like that.

[00:04:57] Jonathan DeYoe: Right. So if you’re a, if you’re a, a solo [00:05:00] practitioner, you gotta find patients. You’ve gotta,

[00:05:02] Jonathan DeYoe: you’ve gotta market. You actually have to like somehow meet people that might need medical help. And he cared about his patients the same way my buddy who runs a retail store, cares about his customers.

[00:05:11] Jonathan DeYoe: you know, different thing you’re selling, but no different in terms of, care for humans. I just, I love that the,

[00:05:17] Jonathan DeYoe: that, yes, doctors are business people too.

[00:05:19] Jonathan DeYoe: it’s some business people don’t wanna be business people either. Like that.

[00:05:22] Lindsay Barnett: this is true. This

[00:05:23] Jonathan DeYoe: I know, I know. Plenty of those.

[00:05:25] Lindsay Barnett: Really. I just wanna be a traveling food writer at the end of the day. But you know, you gotta pay. Pay some bills.

[00:05:29] Jonathan DeYoe: no one pays for that.

[00:05:31] Jonathan DeYoe: I wanna dig into the book. Before we do that, can you give us kind of a, a sketch of your career? Like what, what led you here? Talk

[00:05:37] Jonathan DeYoe: about just briefly, some of the companies and what led you to writing the book.

[00:05:41] Lindsay Barnett: Yeah, I don’t know if this is going too far back, but I actually studied anthropology and thought I was gonna be an archeologist coming out of college. But I went on an archeological dig and I kept finding that people kept. Coming to me when people weren’t getting along and [00:06:00] you know, well, can you help us organize the group to do these things?

[00:06:04] Lindsay Barnett: And so I had this realization. my work is not. To work with dead people, it’s to work with the living. and so, you know, that led me to transition into advertising. Got my first job, you know, in an advertising agency while I was there, kept finding this pull of, oh, I’ll do that training program. Oh, I’ll help with recruiting.

[00:06:29] Lindsay Barnett: And so I made the flip into human resources within advertising. And when I got that first job in HR or in advertising, my boss was like, ah, we don’t need to teach you the business. This is amazing. We can teach you hr, we can teach you those skills. And so that was really my first aha that it’s great to learn the business.

[00:06:54] Lindsay Barnett: If you wanna really help align people to strategy, you’ve gotta know what the business is. [00:07:00] So I. After that, I went into business school, continued to, get my degree, and then I moved over to Amgen, where I was for many, many years. Had a lot of wonderful mentors, great opportunities in the HR profession there as well.

[00:07:17] Lindsay Barnett: Then I took a short jaunt to Australia where I moved. My husband got an opportunity to work. There and I said, all right, let’s go. We’ll bring our 18 month old there. We’ll have a family adventure there. I kind of reinvented myself, was like, I’m gonna do something different that I would never get to do.

[00:07:37] Lindsay Barnett: I’m gonna write children’s books. So I did that. Then I came home, started at Mattel. So you’re, you’re hopefully starting to see there’s this like through line, through all of this of just pivoting and reinvention. after Mattel, I moved back into the biotech space. Where I was at, kite Pharma, a Gilead company, and then now [00:08:00] I’ve pivoted again to author, entrepreneur, which is really when I went to business school, what I thought I would be doing at some point in my life.

[00:08:09] Lindsay Barnett: I had a kind of minor in entrepreneurship and, you know, really saw this as my future, hopefully someday.

[00:08:18] Jonathan DeYoe: And, and here you are. So what,

[00:08:20] Jonathan DeYoe: was it just the, the many pivots that led you to write the book? Or what was it about

[00:08:24] Jonathan DeYoe: the career path that said, Hey, you know, this is an inspiration. I’m gonna write this book. Why, why the book

[00:08:30] Lindsay Barnett: I think there’s a couple things. and sorry for not fully answering your original question, but you know, in all of those pivots along the way, another common thread was that I really wanted to. Live the life that I wanted, right? I wanted work, life, harmony, and that’s one of the things that I saw going back to my father, you know, early on that this is possible you can do what you love and still have a life.

[00:08:59] Lindsay Barnett: [00:09:00] And so. over time as I got to grow more and more in my career in corporate America, I was finding that I was starting to move away from that work life harmony and moving more towards being a workaholic. And so Where I made a pivot was, it was the height of the pandemic.

[00:09:19] Lindsay Barnett: I had two young kids. Going to school, maybe like in some cases, 20 minutes a day. It was working, you know, as an HR business partner. All the clients were in deep need, and our company at the time offered, different flexible work arrangements. And so I spoke with my, boss at the time. I said, I am dying here.

[00:09:45] Lindsay Barnett: I’ve gotta make a change. can we talk about switching to part-time and here are the 18 options that I’ve come up with that make this work for the business. It can work for me. Thankfully, we had a, a really [00:10:00] strong relationship and he was able to get my part-time role approved. That being said, once I found, myself in the part-time role and I was doing some coaching with people who were not working part-time hours, I.

[00:10:14] Lindsay Barnett: We had all these similar skills and practices, And so I think for me, in all of this journey, I found, you can find and discover new choices for yourself and you can use your voice. To make them a reality.

[00:10:33] Lindsay Barnett: So what I really tried to do in the book is help people go on that journey, A very practical applied practitioner journey of. How do I start to make some change for myself if that’s what I want. You don’t have to work part-time hours like I did, but that was where I had the time and space to really be able to see all of [00:11:00] these patterns, see all these habits and practices that were supportive to me and a lot of my clients.

[00:11:07] Jonathan DeYoe: With that, I actually wanna dig into the book a little bit.

[00:11:09] Jonathan DeYoe: You talk a lot about shared responsibility for wellbeing in the workplace, which I absolutely love in theory,

[00:11:15] Jonathan DeYoe: but I know you’ve had these conversations.

[00:11:17] Jonathan DeYoe: I’ve had plenty of these conversations where people don’t feel like they have a lot of influence at work, especially in large organizations. So how do you see individuals making change when they don’t feel they have formal power?

[00:11:29] Lindsay Barnett: Yeah, so yes, there is a power dynamic, no doubt. But I literally was on a, a client call this morning with a seasoned executive reporting to A CEO who felt. In many ways, very disempowered and felt like he, he couldn’t make some of the changes that he wanted to see. And so one of the things that we talked about was just the concept of boundaries.

[00:11:57] Lindsay Barnett: And so there is two [00:12:00] ways of thinking about boundaries that, that at least I appreciate. A lot of times we think about boundaries as keeping somebody out, right? And like, it’s almost like, how do I armor up? There is another way of thinking about boundaries, which is how do I keep energy in? so sometimes a way of thinking about that is I don’t even need to speak up to create better work-life harmony for myself.

[00:12:26] Lindsay Barnett: I can just start to figure out what are some of the things that I need to do to keep my energy. And so that could be, all right, they want me to do X, Y, Z project and it’s due tomorrow, I’m gonna set a timer and work on it for two hours and I’m calling it a day.

[00:12:47] Lindsay Barnett: Right? There are things that may not always work right, but how do we start to play with these possibilities of. Can I push the needle a little bit [00:13:00] here? Can I, you know, create some energy for myself? Can I remove the concept of I’m just gonna power through? No, my body is feeling itchy. I can’t focus. I need to go take myself for a walk.

[00:13:14] Lindsay Barnett: Nobody knows I’m doing this right. But these are some of the things that we can give ourselves to support us in creating greater work life. Harmony doesn’t have to be a permission, like I asked you, right? It doesn’t have to be, Hey, can I go for a walk? No, just go do it. Right? What’s gonna happen?

[00:13:37] Jonathan DeYoe: Right. It’s not to force this down your throat or anything like that,

[00:13:41] Jonathan DeYoe: but, but is it, it sounds like take back your power. So taking a little bit back for yourself, that’s not gonna lead to like organizational change or a

[00:13:49] Jonathan DeYoe: shift of our culture.

[00:13:51] Jonathan DeYoe: So what, what are some of the small things like an individual contributor can do

[00:13:54] Jonathan DeYoe: that could have a ripple effect

[00:13:56] Lindsay Barnett: so to me. Where you can have [00:14:00] that ripple effect is when you’re not sneaking around. So this is where, you know, one of the concepts and stories that I share in the book is this concept of leaving loudly and it’s not quitting, like, you know, rage quitting. It’s. I am leaving for the end of the day, right?

[00:14:20] Lindsay Barnett: I am saying goodbye to everybody. I’m slamming the door. I’m saying I’m starting the life bit now. But when you do that, it creates some safety for others to be able to do that.

[00:14:34] Jonathan DeYoe: Ah.

[00:14:34] Lindsay Barnett: And like one of the things that I started in the pandemic that I love, that I still do to this day is walking meetings.

[00:14:41] Lindsay Barnett: you know, if you and I just had a call I might ping you and say, Hey Jonathan, do you mind if I take our call on the road? I really need a walk right now. And I’ll tell you, at least 50% of the time, the other person on the other line would say, oh.

[00:14:58] Lindsay Barnett: Well, I’m going to get on my shoes. [00:15:00] I’ll, I’ll call you in five minutes. So all of a sudden it’s rippling by my role modeling. This is how I’m gonna work. It starts to create safety. And if that person who joined me on a walking meeting now invites somebody else on a walking meeting, right? Or somebody else says, I’m going to my, you know, my son’s baseball game now.

[00:15:21] Lindsay Barnett: See you in the morning. All of a sudden it creates this culture shift of it is safe, it is okay to go do life.

[00:15:33] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah,

[00:15:34] Jonathan DeYoe: do you see this working differently across generations? I’m, I’m just sort of thinking of myself as Gen X.

[00:15:39] Lindsay Barnett: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:40] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m just vomiting up what I read in the media about millennials and Gen Z right now. you know, they, they are taking back the workplace.

[00:15:48] Jonathan DeYoe: They are just, you know, work-life balance. Gen X and my Gen X peers we’re like, yeah, we just notice the grindstone. You tell us to do a thing, we’re gonna sit and do the thing. Like, we’re,

[00:15:56] Jonathan DeYoe: that’s what we Do Do you see a difference across generations in this, [00:16:00] in this, uh, process?

[00:16:01] Lindsay Barnett: So it’s actually interesting ’cause I did some research for the book around this kind of generational nuance. there are some nuances at the end of the day. We all kind of want the same thing though,

[00:16:15] Jonathan DeYoe: we do not give ourselves permission to take a break.

[00:16:17] Lindsay Barnett: Yes, I don’t know if it’s ’cause so many of us were latchkey kids I don’t know.

[00:16:22] Jonathan DeYoe: Oh, damn. You just hit it. Oh.

[00:16:25] Lindsay Barnett: But that’s not in any of the research that I read. Um, but there is, there is an element that I do find interesting if you think about millennials and, gen Z and you know, gen Alpha, they are digital natives, right? And, you know, one of the things that I think is different between us, you know, we, I’m from Gen X too, like, yeah, we, we grew up with computers and video games and things like that, we didn’t have technology to the same degree of 24 7 always on.

[00:16:56] Lindsay Barnett: I. You know, kinds of experiences [00:17:00] and, you know, , the research that I included in the book does capture that there are higher levels of anxiety in the younger generations. And so I do think that there is some connection to this always on, you know, not to blame social media or things like that, but you know.

[00:17:20] Jonathan DeYoe: Blame away. I agree.

[00:17:22] Lindsay Barnett: But like even I think about when I started to see my shift to workaholism, it started when I got my first work phone that was an iPhone that I could take home with me.

[00:17:33] Lindsay Barnett: So all of a sudden I’m now accessible all the time. So I do think that there is a difference based on just generalized anxiety levels or nervous system differences or, whatnot, that I do think makes, powering through or whatever what, whatever is the Gen Z, you know, claim to fame harder.

[00:17:58] Lindsay Barnett: Because you just [00:18:00] aren’t operating from that same plane. Although I think now that we’re all getting more and more technology bound, we’re all kind of starting to experience that too,

[00:18:10] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m wondering what level

[00:18:11] Jonathan DeYoe: or what amount, um, to what extent does first and then

[00:18:17] Jonathan DeYoe: vulnerability.

[00:18:18] Jonathan DeYoe: Play into like, taking that first step. Yeah. I’m gonna, I’m gonna, what, what’d you call it? I’m gonna loud, loud, leave,

[00:18:24] Lindsay Barnett: Oh, loudly. Yeah.

[00:18:26] Jonathan DeYoe: loudly for the day,

[00:18:27] Jonathan DeYoe: or, you know, let’s go for this walk.

[00:18:29] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. You sort of have to step up and say, Hey, I need the walk. I’m self-aware enough to know that I need to get outta the office and then I need to say to somebody, I need to be vulnerable. Hey, do you mind if I do this as I walk? Because I need to get outta the office.

[00:18:41] Lindsay Barnett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I’m not saying it doesn’t take courage. It, it takes courage. It takes practice, it takes intention, and there is a mindfulness component. there are, you know, components of, and that is one of the chapters in the book is just working mindfully.

[00:18:59] Lindsay Barnett: [00:19:00] if you can start to create some amount of mindfulness, it does make it easier to notice, like, you know, I wouldn’t have known to take myself for a walk if I didn’t start to have. More practices around mindfulness because I wouldn’t be attuned to, okay, I’m shifting in my chair. I can’t focus and put string together some thoughts.

[00:19:25] Lindsay Barnett: No. If you just keep staring at that computer longer, it’s gonna work, right? No. Like, okay, something is happening, my body is sending me a message, pay attention. But I, I wouldn’t have that if I didn’t cultivate some degree of mindfulness practices to support me in that.

[00:19:44] Jonathan DeYoe: So given that, and, and I’ve had lots of guests talk about self-awareness and mindfulness, obviously. given the sort of the 24 7 nature of social media of connectivity I feel like we’ve developed that mi we develop less mindfulness. there’s like a cultural shift towards [00:20:00] more mindfulness in the workplace.

[00:20:01] Jonathan DeYoe: That’s usually about, you know, how do we get our employees to work more harder, right? It’s not about really health and wellbeing, but because it’s that, that connectivity that always on nature where we sort of have a lower, awareness of what’s going on in our bodies. And amazing how disconnected people are from their bodies.

[00:20:19] Jonathan DeYoe: those, that kind of fights against the, the whole goal of awareness so that you can take care of yourself. what’s the first step? Like, how do we get there first?

[00:20:26] Jonathan DeYoe: how do we develop the awareness that our bodies might need a break in the workspace so that we may have the vulnerability to take the break?

[00:20:34] Lindsay Barnett: Yeah. I mean, honestly, I’m a big believer in practice, for me, a lot of my body awareness and mind body connections comes from starting a meditation practice, which feels so like cliche and I am not a good meditator. Not that it’s performative, but like I do what I can when I can, but for me, it’s a commitment to myself.

[00:20:59] Lindsay Barnett: Does [00:21:00] it help? I think it does. Yoga is probably my more robust practice ’cause I’ve been doing it for 25 years. It’s really about finding the practice that works for you. Some people I know just set a timer on their phone, right?

[00:21:16] Lindsay Barnett: Like, okay, it’s been an hour. Check in. How am I doing? Do I need a break? I don’t know. Maybe I do, maybe I don’t. Then I’m gonna set the timer for another 20 minutes. Right? So that’s one device. I am a, a big, believer in bundling habits. So I had a client who. We were just, you know, talking through mindfulness.

[00:21:39] Lindsay Barnett: I was like, just practice breathing. And it was like, okay, what, what am I gonna do with that? and I said, okay, well, tell me about your other habits. Well, I always stop and I get tea between meetings. Great. Can we just write a sticky on your tea canister that says breathe? She’s like, sure. So we just did that.

[00:21:59] Lindsay Barnett: [00:22:00] Right? other clients I’ve said. Okay, just brush your teeth. you have to brush your teeth, brush your teeth mindfully. Just try not to think about other things. So it’s whatever practice is gonna work for you. But if you can take a little bit of time, and obviously it helps if you have a coach or a thought partner, a friend, or Somebody who is helping you through this, but. Starting even with like the very basic things can start to build out that skill. In my experience, at least you, you probably have your own practices. I.

[00:22:36] Jonathan DeYoe: do. And I, and, I would say there are lots of pro people can walk in the forest. They can read a book, they can listen to soft music. There’s all kinds, and there’s something intentional and different about an actual. 20 minutes on a cushion or in a chair staring at a

[00:22:53] Jonathan DeYoe: wall.

[00:22:53] Jonathan DeYoe: There’s something intentional and different about it

[00:22:56] Jonathan DeYoe: that actually changes the chemistry of your brain. It actually does have a [00:23:00] scientific impact on your, so I think there is a difference, and I do

[00:23:02] Jonathan DeYoe: think there’s value in a formal sitting practice, but I’m off my soapbox.

[00:23:07] Lindsay Barnett: I just, when you meet people where they’re at,

[00:23:11] Jonathan DeYoe: Yep.

[00:23:11] Lindsay Barnett: then they can get their own data. to bring it, that to bear fruit, right?

[00:23:20] Jonathan DeYoe: you encourage, uh, a lot of people to bring their whole selves to work.

[00:23:23] Lindsay Barnett: Yes. Yeah,

[00:23:24] Jonathan DeYoe: And that’s, that’s a, that’s a big, that’s a big thing that we, we read in the book.

[00:23:27] Jonathan DeYoe: but I also know some people who are historically marginalized

[00:23:32] Jonathan DeYoe: and they know they come to work and they, they know I can’t bring my whole self to

[00:23:36] Jonathan DeYoe: work. So how do you balance sort of authenticity with real concerns of belonging and risk,

[00:23:42] Jonathan DeYoe: in the culture of a workspace?

[00:23:43] Lindsay Barnett: Yeah. So I think there’s a few different ways to, and tell me if I’m not answering your question, but I think there are a few different ways to address that. I think one, finding your people whoever they are, right? I mean, [00:24:00] my. Closest friend, at a previous company was, a guy of a different religion, different background, you know, but so aside from, you know, lived experience, that was my, my person, right?

[00:24:15] Lindsay Barnett: And so and Gallup has a lot of research on this, right? If you have a best friend at work, right? So. As long as you have a person that can support your belonging. And by the way, you know, some SHRM data shows that people who experience a sense of belonging are two and a half times less likely to burn out.

[00:24:38] Lindsay Barnett: So yes, we wanna make sure that, that people can, have a, at least a person, to experience that sense of belonging. But you know, I have been in unsafe environment. It’s like, I, I, I get it that there is a little bit of, well, how do I [00:25:00] dip my toe in to see is it safe to be this part of me right now? You know? can I now. Show this part of me and I, look, I’ve, I’ve had situations where my experiment went wrong and did not go well. So it comes down a little bit to, you know, how courageous can you be and that courage may need to be practiced outside of work,

[00:25:29] Jonathan DeYoe: And inevitably, if you are vulnerable and courageous, you get smacked occasionally. Like

[00:25:35] Jonathan DeYoe: regardless of you know who you are, what you look like, where you are,

[00:25:39] Jonathan DeYoe: if you’re courageous and vulnerable,

[00:25:42] Jonathan DeYoe: it will go against you at some point.

[00:25:43] Jonathan DeYoe: is,

[00:25:44] Jonathan DeYoe: in that scenario, what is the leader’s responsibility, towards creating that safety?

[00:25:48] Jonathan DeYoe: Like not just saying it, but living. How does a leader in an organization set it up They’re modeling. It’s okay to be whoever you are.

[00:25:56] Lindsay Barnett: I mean, I think it’s exactly what you just said, right? [00:26:00] I, and I, and I hear this a lot from leaders, there’s a little bit of tension sometimes, especially with a lot of leaders I work with who are in, kind of the STEM spaces. you know. they’re a private person. I don’t, I don’t wanna ask them questions about themselves and things like that.

[00:26:17] Lindsay Barnett: Like they’re not sure how to signal that it’s a safe space. And so what I often say in those instances is you may have to role model at first, right? You may need to e exactly. Like you may have to put out there. You know, I’m a mom and you know, some days I’m just not sleeping right or whatever. Sorry if I’m a little out of it today.

[00:26:48] Lindsay Barnett: I, you know, my child was up late, and so I didn’t get a lot of sleep sharing those little bits of personal information. Can help. and I loved that one [00:27:00] aspect of COVID, where in a lot of ways we got to see other parts of people’s lives. Right? And it, it brought the bar down a little bit on the very formal buttoned up.

[00:27:13] Lindsay Barnett: This is, you know, this is work me, right? We don’t live in severance. It’s, the show is not real. But you know, that’s just one thing is just starting with the role modeling, showcasing your own comfort level with vulnerability. There are a lot of other things, that leaders can do to foster psychological safety.

[00:27:35] Lindsay Barnett: I think one of the things that I find is particularly in team environments, you know, oftentimes we think about leaders as this like one-to-one relationship, but I think in team environments really making sure that you are making it safe for everybody to speak up. A lot of people get interrupted. This is like one of [00:28:00] the big things that impacts psychological safety is interruption.

[00:28:05] Lindsay Barnett: And so really being mindful of interruptions and repeats so hold on. Wanna hear what you have to say, but can they finish their thought? Right now it’s safe. Okay. Oh, wait, we’re, we’re all on equal footing here and being able to contribute to the conversation and or giving somebody credit.

[00:28:28] Lindsay Barnett: Right? Like really, Jonathan. Such a good point. I just wanna build on what you said, right? These are some of the things that the, and a lot of these are really inclusion best practices, but they can support some of those feelings of psychological safety as well as, you know, bringing your, whole self to work when you do it in a team environment.

[00:28:49] Lindsay Barnett: Sharing some of these things off elicits other people, sharing their own things.

[00:28:55] Jonathan DeYoe: you modeling gives people permission. That’s the whole, that’s the whole point, right. this one’s [00:29:00] deeply interesting for me. So

[00:29:00] Jonathan DeYoe: I work in finance and so industries like medicine, finance, and law, I don’t know how you slow down and keep up, like, I don’t know how, just enough and avoid overwork.

[00:29:13] Jonathan DeYoe: I am a card carrying member of the Overworked Society, and I’m not, it’s not just I’m a card carrying member. I’m proud of it.

[00:29:20] Lindsay Barnett: Yeah.

[00:29:21] Jonathan DeYoe: Right. And it has only been recently that I’ve been like, okay, I can’t keep doing this so what do you do in those instances where it’s just expected you work 60 hours a week, it’s expected where long hours are just part of it.

[00:29:35] Jonathan DeYoe: How do we bring wellbeing

[00:29:37] Lindsay Barnett: Yeah.

[00:29:38] Jonathan DeYoe: to those environments?

[00:29:39] Lindsay Barnett: there’s a couple things. So there’s things that you can do for at an individual level. There are things that, you probably need to have allies with you to create that change. my money’s on the younger generations right now in basically voting with their feet.

[00:29:56] Lindsay Barnett: So I do think that there will be potentially some [00:30:00] reckoning akin to the great resignation where the companies that are saying, too bad, this is how it is here. Are going to start to suffer, you know, and the data is there, like the companies that are fostering greater wellbeing have better long-term, you know, profit success.

[00:30:20] Lindsay Barnett: Like, like all of the data is, is there supporting what we kind of intuitively already know. there’s a lot of great work coming out of the world Wellbeing Movement, , and Oxford University in England. A supporting that wellbeing is actually the way to do better in, in the workforce. So there’s a little bit of, okay, at some point we’ve gotta wake up that we’re just killing our businesses as we’re killing our people.

[00:30:49] Lindsay Barnett: but you know, as individuals, I think one of the things that I try to be mindful of and that I call out in the book is that energy, unlike time. [00:31:00] Is fluid, right? There are only 24 hours in in the day, but energy is something we have some control over for to a certain degree. So if we think about how we are operating as if we’re like a giant battery, right?

[00:31:18] Lindsay Barnett: How are we making sure that we are still keeping the battery charged? And that can happen in any number of ways, right? There’s the traditional. Kind of thinking around, okay, sleep, exercise, diet, right? there are those. But what I share in the book are three energies that I’ve found that have been really supportive for me as I’ve been at work.

[00:31:44] Lindsay Barnett: And the first one is creative energy. So. Am I doing something in a creative way, right? Whether that’s designing a PowerPoint slide or coming up with an exercise for my [00:32:00] teams, or coming up with a really creative legal solution or scientific experiment, right? Whatever that is. Creativity can be something that is very nourishing.

[00:32:11] Lindsay Barnett: So if you’re. Someone who is really enjoying this creative process, three hours is like nothing, and you don’t even feel it, right, because it’s charging your battery. Whereas if it were me in my case, like filing invoices and, logging hours or whatever, like that is like depleting for me.

[00:32:31] Lindsay Barnett: So how do I make sure that I’m not spending an entire day? ’cause two hours of that. Is equivalent to eight hours of something else. So there’s that creative energy of the things that juice us. Then there’s connection energy. So how am I spending my time? Am I working alongside somebody? Am I working on a group project where we’re debating and we’re bad, you know, getting ideas or am I just like working [00:33:00] in my cubicle and head down and you know, I’m not connecting with anybody?

[00:33:05] Lindsay Barnett: And so connection, energy. There’s a human level, but there’s also a, am I connected to a higher purpose, right? Am I connected to the mission or impacting people? So there’s connection, energy that also you know, fuels us. And then I talk about completion energy. Sometimes we’re on these projects that feel like they’re never gonna end.

[00:33:31] Lindsay Barnett: And so, you know, sometimes. You just need like what I call like a hit of completion energy, which for me is laundry. Like, whatever it is. If I am just like, oh my God, I gotta finish this chapter. And I am just like, I’m feeling antsy and all these things. I’m gonna go do some laundry and that I completed something

[00:33:54] Lindsay Barnett: and it gives me like a, a burst of completion energy of like, all right, I [00:34:00] got this.

[00:34:00] Lindsay Barnett: I can go back and, and go do my thing. So. Time is one thing, but really paying attention to the various things that, you know, really keep our battery charged, can move us out of just that. Like I’m overworked because I am 60 hours. I’m overworked because 45 of those 60 hours are not in my like energy rejuvenation zone.

[00:34:27] Lindsay Barnett: So how do I start to rebalance that?

[00:34:30] Jonathan DeYoe: I’ve got two things going my head. First thing is. a potential subtitle for the show or for for this show is, can laundry give you your energy back? Something, something to that effect. Uh, but then the second thing is, after maybe 20 years doing what I do, I feel like I know exactly what gives me energy.

[00:34:45] Jonathan DeYoe: I know. And what I’ve done is I’ve actually pile it’s juicy stuff. I love doing it, I do that too much. Like I, I. Too many hours

[00:34:55] Jonathan DeYoe: on the line that’s work related. So is there a [00:35:00] structure or a cultural conversation that we’re having about reducing hours in these particular areas where it’s like, like, like finance

[00:35:08] Jonathan DeYoe: law, medicine, where it’s, it’s just drive, drive, drive, drive, drive.

[00:35:12] Jonathan DeYoe: And I, and I think finance is probably one of the worst, in terms of just the amount of time we spend at the desk.

[00:35:18] Jonathan DeYoe: Uh.

[00:35:19] Lindsay Barnett: you know, I think somebody has to start the revolution. I don’t know. I don’t know

[00:35:27] Jonathan DeYoe: Somebody in their twenties.

[00:35:28] Lindsay Barnett: be me? Right?

[00:35:30] Jonathan DeYoe: I, I do hear what you’re saying and maybe your book had something to do with this, and I don’t have to do all this. Like,

[00:35:34] Jonathan DeYoe: maybe it was like, okay, wake up call time. There’s a lot of conversation about burnout right now,

[00:35:39] Jonathan DeYoe: and it feels like it puts the burden back on individuals to fix themselves.

[00:35:44] Jonathan DeYoe: So how do we stay mindful without, making people responsible for healing the system itself?

[00:35:49] Lindsay Barnett: so that is a lot of, I think the, one of the central thesis of of my book, right, is that I don’t have to wait for my organization to make the change. I can [00:36:00] make, I can make some changes for myself tomorrow. but what I’ve found is that we are in a stalemate.

[00:36:09] Lindsay Barnett: Companies are pointing to individuals saying,

[00:36:12] Lindsay Barnett: this is for you. I just give you the work and I pay you. This is for you to figure out, and employees are saying. Well, my manager’s not supportive. The organization is a culture of you FaceTime and I’ve gotta work 60 hours or I’m gonna end up on the chopping block.

[00:36:30] Lindsay Barnett: Right? There is legitimacy to both of this, but right now we’re at a stalemate

[00:36:37] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah.

[00:36:37] Lindsay Barnett: and so we’ve gotta find a way to kind of release the stalemate a little bit. And to me it comes down to accountability. Like how do I take accountability for myself, the role that I play in my own wellbeing by not sneaking around on my wellbeing, right?

[00:36:56] Lindsay Barnett: Like, oh, no one’s around. I can sneak out to go to the gym now. Right? [00:37:00] I’m going to the gym, see you guys later, right? There are ways that we can role model it, for others so that they then can start to do it. So we can see some of that ripple effect. I think we have to train our managers and our leaders to really think about wellbeing.

[00:37:19] Lindsay Barnett: There are three skills that hopefully managers already have or are already doing, right, which is around creating clarity, making space for negotiation and developing people. Like they should be doing this already. If you do these three things with a wellbeing lens, you can make it better for everybody.

[00:37:45] Lindsay Barnett: Um, and you will probably be, be the person that everyone wants to work for. You’re gonna have better retention. there. There’re all these benefits to being that leader that has wellbeing in mind and as an organization. I [00:38:00] get it. Like it’s big. I’ve worked at big organizations. It is hard to move the needle, but you can keep chipping away at it.

[00:38:09] Lindsay Barnett: You know, you can either say that’s it, you know, I mean, if you look at, you know, Microsoft, right? Like they got a new CEO in, he made a big shift to the Microsoft culture. making it a less toxic workplace, right? So you, if, if you’re not someone at the CEO level doing that, there are pockets of great wellbeing in all of these organizations.

[00:38:31] Lindsay Barnett: So, you know, there isn’t one organization that’s toxic everywhere. Well, maybe there is, but you know, for the most part, there are organizations that are known to be toxic, but there are still pockets of wellbeing within them, which gives me hope that. It is possible.

[00:38:48] Jonathan DeYoe: it sounds like it’s very individual manager based, like this manager. Helps people out, or this leader, let’s say, instead of manager, this leader helps people out and, is known as somebody who’s vulnerable is known that work life and [00:39:00] wellbeing is, these are all important things, but right next door there’s another leader who is like, no, no, we gotta work 80 hours, get this shit done.

[00:39:08] Jonathan DeYoe: It’s getting deep with individuals, but it’s also getting broad across. It’s the organization has to start saying, okay, everyone has to take this training on how to actually, you know, engender wellbeing amongst our people. it can’t just be individual managers or individual leaders trying to learn how to do it themselves.

[00:39:23] Lindsay Barnett: Yes. And.

[00:39:26] Jonathan DeYoe: You have to start with individual leaders. Like that’s how it that, right? Of

[00:39:28] Jonathan DeYoe: course. Yeah.

[00:39:30] Lindsay Barnett: and the organization though, plays that role though in saying, you know, this is what a good leader looks like here. you know, so there is, different layers, right? There’s culture, there’s strategy, and there’s programs, if you look at some of those, you can kind of go up and going up and down, right?

[00:39:49] Lindsay Barnett: ’cause the strategy kind of leads the business. The culture supports it, and the programs support, you know, potential wellbeing and what you’re trying to create in the culture. So. You can [00:40:00] take a look at any of those levels and start saying, what do we need to do as an organization now? How do we dial that back to the leader level, to the individual employee level?

[00:40:10] Lindsay Barnett: so there are a lot of different ways to start moving. It just comes back to this intention, do we wanna do it? But individual leaders, you know, I’ve seen, ’cause I worked in HR for decades. the leaders that are tough to work for and don’t care about their employees, they generally don’t get the same results.

[00:40:34] Lindsay Barnett: They have retention issues, they do suffer the, the consequences says.

[00:40:39] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Yeah. that seems to make sense. I, I, I like the fact that that’s, that, that’s what the data shows us. Like to be a good leader, you have to take care of your people. maybe this podcast will, will, will turn the tide.

[00:40:50] Jonathan DeYoe: We’ll see.

[00:40:50] Jonathan DeYoe: there’s, there’s an enormous amount of noise out there. So if you, if we have an organizational leader that’s listening to the podcast, what is one thing they can take away from this [00:41:00] that can implement today that will lead to less burnout, to more wellbeing on their teams?

[00:41:05] Lindsay Barnett: for me, I think there’s so many things, but for leaders specifically, don’t miss the signs I. And by that I mean I have had many a coaching client share that they tried to talk to their manager about, I’m feeling burnt out, or, you know, and they may not even said those words. They may have just said.

[00:41:33] Lindsay Barnett: You know, I have one coaching client in in mind right now where, you know, she was working, west Coast hours and Asia hours and was like, I am burning the candle at both ends, right? You’re working around the clock and you know, she was very thoughtful, solution oriented. Went to a manager and said, here’s what I think we could do to help.

[00:41:58] Lindsay Barnett: You know, we’re still [00:42:00] meeting the business goals, et cetera, but it will help me as an individual. And the manager was like, I don’t think that’s gonna work. Right. that person just gave you heads up that they’re experiencing burnout. They came with solutions, experiment. Let’s try it for a week.

[00:42:20] Lindsay Barnett: Let’s try it for a month. See what happens. I know a lot of managers who will say, I’m very empathetic. I know things are really hard, et cetera, negotiate.

[00:42:34] Lindsay Barnett: so let’s figure this out. you’re saying you would remove this, but what if we keep that, but remove that? how do you stay open for negotiation and experimentation?

[00:42:46] Lindsay Barnett: When you’re getting those clues and those signs stay open. I should just make a big I’m we’re open sign

[00:42:54] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah.

[00:42:55] Jonathan DeYoe: Stay curious. Stay curious, like stay curious. It’s that beginner’s mind kind of a [00:43:00] thing.

[00:43:00] Jonathan DeYoe: just before we wrap, we’re coming up to the top of the hour here. Just before we wrap up, what was the last thing you changed your mind about?

[00:43:07] Lindsay Barnett: social media probably.

[00:43:09] Jonathan DeYoe: in a positive way or negative way? Please explain.

[00:43:12] Lindsay Barnett: so, you know, as a new author, you need to get the word out about your message and, I just, you know, the algorithms and like all those things, I just kept finding myself very frustrated and I just had to. Except this is part of how messages get spread in the world and find my way of participating in social media.

[00:43:41] Lindsay Barnett: That was going to be in good conscience for me, but I very easily been like, that’s it. I’m done.

[00:43:51] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, I’m there. so really it’s, it’s the change of the mind is that you are going to not embrace, but engage social media.

[00:43:58] Lindsay Barnett: Yes,

[00:43:59] Jonathan DeYoe: Okay. [00:44:00] That’s, you kind of have to, you’re right.

[00:44:01] Jonathan DeYoe: tell people how they connect with you. Where do they find you?

[00:44:03] Lindsay Barnett: yes. So you can find me on LinkedIn. Lindsey Barnett. And you can also find me at the book website, which is, working hell to working well.com. Lots of free resources there. We sign up for the mailing list, also at barnettcoaching.com as well.

[00:44:25] Jonathan DeYoe: Lindsay, thanks so much for coming on. Great conversation. Lots of help. I’m sure the audience gonna get a lot out of it. Appreciate it.

[00:44:30] Lindsay Barnett: Thank you so much for having me. Great to talk with you.

[00:44:33] Outro: Thanks for listening. Full show notes for each episode, which includes a summary, key takeaways, quotes, and any resources mentioned are available at Mindful Money. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. And if you’re enjoying the content and getting value from these episodes, please leave us a rating and review [00:45:00] ratethispodcast.com/mindfulmoney. We’ll be sure to read those out on future episodes.