Kelli Harding — The Science of Kindness: The Overlooked Ingredient in Health and Wellbeing with Kelli Harding

[00:00:00] Kelli Harding: We spend a third of our lives at work and we wanna make sure that we’re happy there and that we’re not just like waiting for five o’clock or whenever our shift is over. There are just some workplaces that are not great environments. But you as an individual showing up can make a difference. So, do what you can to connect to the people that are around you and help others feel supported and have their back. That makes a really big difference and like if you’re under stress and in a tense situation, you are not using all your brain functioning, you’re much more likely to be going back to sort of like those more primitive functions and fight or flights. So when we are relaxed and feel comfortable and supported, that is actually a great sign for productivity.

[00:00:37] Intro: Do you think money takes up more life space than it should? On this show, we discuss with and share stories from artists, authors, entrepreneurs, and advisors about how they mindfully minimize the time and energies. Spent thinking about money. Join your host, Jonathan DeYoe, [00:01:00] and learn how to put money in its place and get more out of life.

[00:01:11] Jonathan DeYoe: Hey there. Welcome back. On this episode of The Mindful Money Podcast

[00:01:14] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m chatting with Dr. Kelly Harding. Dr. Harding MD MPH is an expert in psychiatry, mind, body medicine, and public health. She teaches at Columbia University in New York. She wants to make the world a kinder and healthier place for everybody.

[00:01:30] Jonathan DeYoe: Dr. Harding has appeared in media basically across the board today, Good Morning America, BBC, New York Times, Washington Post, Prevention, LA Times, Oprah Magazine, Parents, and others. She’s the author, and the reason I wanted to have her on the podcast, of The Rabbit Effect: Live Longer, Happier, and Healthier with the Groundbreaking Science of Kindness.

[00:01:50] Jonathan DeYoe: Dr. Harding, welcome to the Mindful Money Podcast.

[00:01:53] Kelli Harding: Oh, it’s absolutely my pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me as a guest.

[00:01:58] Jonathan DeYoe: Oh, absolutely. I’m excited for the [00:02:00] conversation. So, first, let the audience know where do you call home and where are you connecting from?

[00:02:04] Kelli Harding: So I live in New York City, in Manhattan , and it’s funny ’cause I think when it comes to the term home, I’m actually kind of home wherever I am. It doesn’t matter. I lived all over the United States when I was a kid, so I many places feel like home.

[00:02:20]

[00:02:20] Jonathan DeYoe: You lived all over. Did you grow up anywhere or was it like two years here? Two years There.

[00:02:24] Kelli Harding: Yeah, so listening to your podcast, one of the things that struck me as sort of, you know, where we get our ideas about money and, you know, our mindset around money a lot of times. And, my parents were almost like digital nomads before that was a thing. And, my mom was an educator and, my dad always did investments in the stock market and, I think I went to nine different schools before ninth grade, so all over the United States. They had a deal with me that in high school, wherever I stayed, I could stay for the four years.

[00:02:57] Kelli Harding: So that ended up being in Nevada.

[00:03:00] [00:03:00]

[00:03:00] Jonathan DeYoe: Wow. So I mean, nine schools before ninth grade, , that’s a lot of moving around. I’m wondering what that taught you about

[00:03:07] Jonathan DeYoe: money

[00:03:09] Kelli Harding: it’s also interesting ’cause um, initially my parents had, created a lot of affluence for themselves , then actually lost it all in a stock market crash. , and I would say the big lesson for that. For me was that, you know, we survived, we got through it and, uh, it wasn’t always easy, but it also made me realize that it’s okay to take risks in life.

[00:03:32] Kelli Harding: ’cause whatever happens, you’re gonna figure out a way. , there’s a quote that I like that’s often attributed to John Lennon that, in the end, everything’s gonna be all right. And if it’s not all right, it’s not the end.

[00:03:46] Kelli Harding: I think the other thing that, that really taught me, because the, my parents remarkably managed to continue to do very fun things despite us not having money. So I, it also taught me that, I think a lot of times [00:04:00] when you think about how do I wanna live? Like what’s the good life?

[00:04:03] Kelli Harding: know, money is a. Piece of that, but it’s not the whole story. and actually you can get like really creative and have a lot of fun without a lot of budget. So money is nice and help, it certainly helps grease the wheels, but at the same time, it’s not a necessary prerequisite as long as you have enough to eat in a place to sleep.

[00:04:21] Jonathan DeYoe: , for, for fun.

[00:04:23] The whole concept of, and I’ve thought about this and talked about this for years and years and years, the whole concept of. Enough is enough. And then we get bent outta shape about more. We get, you know, better job, more income, and we just get on this treadmill. , and I’m sure we talked about this or you researched some of this stuff , in your own, your own history and your own academic work.

[00:04:40] Jonathan DeYoe: But , can you name like one experience, , , maybe the stock market crash is the thing, but that one experience that you had growing up that sort of translates into a lesson that you took out of. Of your, your childhood towards money or about money.

[00:04:58] Kelli Harding: mean, that probably [00:05:00] was the really big lesson, and I know it’s a, a theme that I hear from a lot of your guests is if you’re gonna invest. It’s less about things, more about experiences, , and you know, the study really backed that up in terms of what makes us happy ultimately. And I think as a medical doctor, I of course know you can’t take it with you.

[00:05:18] Kelli Harding: those memories are really priceless. And so, just give you an example. have the choice of do I buy an item or do I buy. Or invest in an experience I like 99% of the time go with the experience because, , that will last and create so much joy, much more so than an item that people eventually on the hedonic treadmill just sort of, it goes into the background.

[00:05:44] Kelli Harding: my son turned 13 and he loves the Miami Heat, so we decided to make a family trip out of going to see the Miami Heat Play and, had a great time as opposed to buying him, you know, some other thing that, or [00:06:00] device or something that he wanted. So, , yeah, so those kinds of things are, I feel like a, a good use of money and time.

[00:06:07] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m wondering, early on when you had the, the childhood experience, did you pick up on that then the experience versus the thing? Or is it something that you’ve picked up on because now you’ve read the

[00:06:16] Jonathan DeYoe: academic research about it?

[00:06:18] Kelli Harding: guess I didn’t really have a choice, right? So like we just didn’t have the cash. ,So, so we learned to make do with what we had. And, like the place you’re eating or the, like, how fancy the meal is. But it’s like, you know, what can you bring to the experience that is, connects you to other people that adds warmth, that adds laughter, joy, like those are all things that are just totally intangible and it doesn’t matter whether you’re sitting over a very expensive meal or you know, like a hamburger at your favorite spot.

[00:06:49] Jonathan DeYoe: Or a good burrito. A good burrito. Always inexpensive. I love A good Yeah, I’m actually, it’s funny, I chose hamburger as my option ’cause I’m actually a vegetarian, but you know, so [00:07:00] burrito,

[00:07:00] Kelli Harding: . so for people who are listening, I’m, a physician and my area of study has been what I guess, the general public would probably call MINDBODY medicine. I got really interested in medical school about what it was that kept people healthy despite really serious. Illnesses.

[00:07:19] Kelli Harding: And also the flip side of that, you know what? , were sort of medical mysteries like, you know, patients who would come in not feeling well, not functioning well, but we couldn’t find anything when we would go to look on labs and imaging and sort of trying to understand what is that all about?

[00:07:35] Kelli Harding: And so that led me really on this incredible learning journey that I feel very fortunate to have traveled on. That included things like, you know, studying as much as I could about adult medicine and psychiatry and the overlap between the brain and the body. And then, I actually even did a research fellowship in medically unexplained symptoms at Columbia.

[00:07:55] and then that all led me to, , public health. And , it was actually a [00:08:00] study about. That sort of helped create the pivot, and that’s where the name of the book, the.

[00:08:07] Jonathan DeYoe: tell us the story. read the book so I know the story, but

[00:08:09] Jonathan DeYoe: I love, I love the story.

[00:08:11] Kelli Harding: back in the late 1970s, there was a really lovely researcher by the name of Dr. Robert Nira, he was the basic scientist and studying the heart health of rabbits and, the connection between diet and heart health. he did this.

[00:08:25] Kelli Harding: Really straightforward experiment where he fed all these basically genetically identical rabbits, a high fat diet. He expected the same health outcome and instead, one of the groups of rabbits had a 60% difference in their health outcomes. And he couldn’t figure out what was going on. And he was really a top notch researcher.

[00:08:43] Kelli Harding: So he thought it was something wrong with the study. Everything checked out. and then they noticed that the group of. That did better, were being cared for by the same, researcher and her name was Marina Levesque. She not only was, doing the sort of standard rabbit [00:09:00] protocol, but she was also petting the rabbits.

[00:09:02] Kelli Harding: She was picking up the rabbits. Petting them, really giving them love and kindness. And, Dr. Nira, who was just an extraordinary thinker, thought, well could it be that somehow the social world is impacting the biology of these animals. And. He thought, let’s find out. And so he redid this study with really tightly controlled conditions and sure enough, he got the exact same results and it, you know, it was really staggering.

[00:09:27] Kelli Harding: They published it in science and, it was. At the time, just like a totally out there concept. And now we have, you know, decades of data about how our social world and how we’re treated in our social world impacts our health on every level. And it’s truly remarkable. So, I felt like this was in a large way what explained that mystery that I was after.

[00:09:50] Kelli Harding: It’s of course.

[00:09:54] Kelli Harding: course it does, and it turns out it’s a huge percentage it’s way I imagined when I to medical [00:10:00] school it the of.

[00:10:05] Jonathan DeYoe: I wanna get in. Numbers in a second, but while I was, , preparing, this quote popped into my head, I just wanna see if you know where it’s from. , , you treat a disease, you win, you lose, you treat a person. I guarantee you’ll win no matter what the outcome. Do you remember where that quote’s

[00:10:18] Jonathan DeYoe: from?

[00:10:19] Kelli Harding: There are a couple different people who have similar quotes, so I’m not exactly sure who might have said that one.

[00:10:29] Jonathan DeYoe: That, that’s Patch Adams, the movie Patch,

[00:10:31] Jonathan DeYoe: Adam. Such a good movie, but it’s like, it’s so, you know, I, I don’t remember that movie, but it’s like, it’s so much about this topic. It’s, you love the patient, you take care of the patient. The patient has better outcomes, but even if they don’t, they live better through the, even if they still die or whatever, they still have better outcomes and that they feel better through the whole process.

[00:10:50] Jonathan DeYoe: That’s kind of the, that’s in a

[00:10:51] Jonathan DeYoe: nutshell, isn’t it?

[00:10:52] Kelli Harding: You know, that is, and also kind of spooky and weird because just this morning I was thinking of that movie, so I should have [00:11:00] gotten the quote because, Robin Williams’ name came up ,and, was thinking about I should rewatch that movie, so this is yet another sign I should, so, you know, I think for people who are listening, you can just kind of think about it. Like it, it makes a difference, like when you’re not feeling well, but you have a trusted friend by your side, or a trusted doctor or a trusted therapist, somebody who gets you and sees you and you feel really has your back.

[00:11:22] Kelli Harding: Like it helps immeasurably, and it turns out it actually is good for our health and it has all these knock on physiological effects as well. So, it matters. And it, it used to be thought that, you know, it was sort of about the outcome and less the process, but now we’ve really understood that in fact, it, it really does matter how you’re feeling in the moment and particularly, if it’s going on for a prolonged period of time, that’s where we have to really pay attention.

[00:11:49] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. So talk about some of the numbers. , the sort of the statistics around the limitations of the actual medical care, the, the sort of the health. You [00:12:00] know, care versus the importance of that element of kindness. , I think in the book you draw some numbers, like healthcare accounts for this much of, of healing care and kindness

[00:12:09] Jonathan DeYoe: accounts for this healing.

[00:12:12] Kelli Harding: Yeah, so this was actually pretty shocking. when you look at the population data, it’s sort of estimated that medical care probably only counts. It’s a critical part, but it only counts for about 10 to 20% of our overall health. So, . It certainly in an emergency it’s this extra important.

[00:12:27] Kelli Harding: however, there are other factors at play too that we have to look at. Now, genes we know about that, one of the things that I talk about in the Rabbit effect is this whole emerging field of epigenetics. which has just been fascinating. It turns out our genes are not as fixed as we once thought that they were, and they’re responding to our environment, which means that that’s why sometimes people have delayed onsets of illness or, you see, illnesses develop faster than you would expect them sometimes too.

[00:12:55] Kelli Harding: And then the other big piece of this, you know, of course, diet, lifestyle, , But the other big [00:13:00] piece of it is our social world. And you know, that’s accounting for, like, if you look at sort of like the pie of health, it’s well over 50% what’s accounting, for our health and wellbeing. And so. that for me was just really wild and actually, I wrote the Rabbit Effect right before the pandemic and then, kind of feel like I’ve been on a five year book tour because we all got a big lesson in public health and I think, many of us experienced, The challenges of loneliness and social isolation also during the pandemic.

[00:13:28] Kelli Harding: So we realized how much, kindness and connection really matter to our health and wellbeing. and, you know, many of us are still billing the repercussions of that. So, you know, those are some of the numbers I. Tons and tons of data in the book. but the numbers all pretty consistently show the same story.

[00:13:44] Kelli Harding: And I think that’s what’s so compelling is when you look at it all together, it really comes down to it like, we almost don’t need like, yet. Another study to show it actually really matters that you are treated with kindness and support in all the areas of your life from, you know, how [00:14:00] you treat yourself to your home, to your schools, workplaces, neighborhoods and communities.

[00:14:05] Kelli Harding: It really makes a difference.

[00:14:07] Jonathan DeYoe: I want to just be very clear. In the last six months I’ve read, I’ve read a lot of articles, sort of debunking a lot of studies that were not, you know, well founded or not. The data wasn’t called correctly or whatever. So there’s many studies that say that our, so, you know, our health derives more than 50% from our social

[00:14:28] Jonathan DeYoe: spaces.

[00:14:29] Kelli Harding: When you think about so well, what does your social world look like? you know, We know it in part because of also the negative impact of these things. So things like adverse childhood experiences we now understand have a better impact on our health and we understood. And every other person you pass on the street has a history of trauma.

[00:14:47] Kelli Harding: Things like education really matter to health, which nobody really thought of as part of education or as part of wellbeing. But the statistics are actually quite staggering when you look at the impact of, of education. for [00:15:00] instance, there’s some work that’s been done by, Dr. Wolf in, Virginia is showing that, , when you look at the population data for every one life.

[00:15:08] Kelli Harding: Saved by biomedicine or medicine, , education saves eight. and there’s other studies backing that up. It seems to have both direct and indirect effects, which is fascinating ’cause we don’t typically think of, , education as part of our health package.

[00:15:22] Kelli Harding: But, um, you know, who are listening,

[00:15:29] Kelli Harding: Things like how we’re treated in our workplaces, um, really matters to our health. It turns out, in fact, some of the studies have shown it’s like the major determinant of your health, which is, you know, really unexpected and fascinating. It’s just like every area and I go in the book, I break it down by different, these different areas.

[00:15:46] Kelli Harding: But it’s just fascinating to look at it. And you know, the other thing is, the longest running study, which is the Harvard study that, you know, started with, some famous first, , participants including, you know, a future [00:16:00] Supreme Court Justice and, uh, JFK was in the group of students being studied.

[00:16:05] Kelli Harding: you know, found surprisingly that the best predictor of health in your 80s was your relationships in your 50s and that was, a totally unexpected finding. That’s something they were looking for, and they found that across the board that, you know, if you want to really invest in your health, you’ve got to invest in your social connections.

[00:16:24] Kelli Harding: So, I mean, going, going to the doctor, doing the basics, like absolutely please do those things. Um, we want to take care of our bodies in every way we possibly can. Exercise, eat well, but also think about who are you eating with, , and, yeah, and also how are you? Spending your time. Jonathan, I just wanna share with you one thing that since I wrote and exploded, is. Purpose and health. And I think that’s really fascinating because it also ties into, of course, our financial health. Because a lot of times we hope that how we’re getting reimbursed in the world also ties into our greater sense of purpose. But [00:17:00] it’s wild. There’s studies that show that the more that we’re able, to have a sense of purpose in life, we live longer and we’re less likely to have things like cognitive decline, which is also really striking because.

[00:17:12] Kelli Harding: Biologically. How does that work? It’s fascinating, so

[00:17:16] Jonathan DeYoe: I mean, before I went to grad school, I, my degree is in philosophy, right? So, I think about Aristotle and talking about the whole person and the different kinds of love , , the importance of meaning in our lives and what matters in our lives. And I, I wonder if you the full arc of, of, you know, I dunno how many, hundreds of years ago that was, but it’s, this full arc and now we’re at social media, we have an epidemic of, of loneliness and there is just despair.

[00:17:39] Jonathan DeYoe: Some tie to the pandemic, but it’s actually expanded since the pandemic. So what are you doing? Like, what is the, in the day to day, what do you do to sort of complete this social circle? , How do you, activate to make it better

[00:17:53] Jonathan DeYoe: for yourself?

[00:17:55] Kelli Harding: Yeah. So if you look at every single day, you [00:18:00] have choices and you have hundreds of choices. And I forget the exact number, but it’s an astounding number of choices, how you wanna spend your time during the day. , so what it comes down to is when you look at sort of like, well, what are the health protective things?

[00:18:12] Kelli Harding: What are the buffers for stress? What lower our cortisol and our blood pressure, and do all these good things? And, you know, kindness actually is. a proxy for that pro-social behavior. And you have infinite moments where you can offer kindness to other people. and kindness is really like social glue.

[00:18:29] Kelli Harding: It connects us to other people. So, I mean, just if, for those listening, like think of a moment of kindness that you’ve seen recently, or done recently or observed recently. It’s so funny. It doesn’t matter whether you’re the giver, the receiver, or the observer. You all benefit

[00:18:51] Kelli Harding: if.

[00:18:57] Jonathan DeYoe: you said something there, it doesn’t matter if you’re the, the receiver, the [00:19:00] giver, or the observer. you don’t get the same benefit, but you get a benefit. So I think the, the lesson is go outside, like go among people because you’re gonna see it, even if you’re not participating

[00:19:10] Jonathan DeYoe: in it.

[00:19:11] Kelli Harding: Yeah. And so actually it gets even weirder. so it turns out that recalling acts of kindness also provide a benefit. So, as much as you can, , you know, be around people. ’cause we know that social isolation is the number of people you see during the day and that it’s not great for us.

[00:19:27] Kelli Harding: Even if you don’t feel subjectively lonely, it’s. shows that there’s benefit to being around people, but when you’re around, people try to connect with them. And an easy way to do that is to offer kindness. You know, it can be like looking people in the eyes. It can be saying hello. It can be opening a door.

[00:19:42] Kelli Harding: It can be, you know. Paying for someone’s coffee or helping someone out who needs a helping hand. Like it’s really infinite and it’s up to you what’s comfortable for you. but those little tiny things that we kind of take for granted and social niceties actually really add up when it comes to our health and wellbeing.

[00:19:59] Kelli Harding: So, I [00:20:00] would encourage listeners to do that. And I, I think it’s funny ’cause our sort of like hustle and grind culture sometimes of trying to make a lot of cash, we forget sometimes those social niceties actually really matter to people. And, in fact the World Happiness Report just had some really interesting data that when you look at acts of kindness, they often make people ha happier than, you know, getting a significant raise.

[00:20:30] Kelli Harding: Give us a pretty great happiness boost. So, , there’s wealth in many ways.

[00:20:35] Jonathan DeYoe: For sure. I want to go to the workplace , in a second, but you sort of challenged me and I I deviated from it. So I, I had this experience. I was in a bar the other night. I recently moved to Oakland, so I’m in a new sort of space. I used to live in Berkeley, and you know how you hang the coats on a hook underneath the bar?

[00:20:52] Kelli Harding: Yeah.

[00:20:52] Jonathan DeYoe: I was, was sitting at the bar. A woman had hung , her coat there. I hung my coat over it and she came up and she was trying to get her coat and she just put her hand on my back and said, [00:21:00] excuse me. And we had this just little interchange and it hit me that it was just, it was just a warm kind.

[00:21:06] Jonathan DeYoe: We laughed a little bit. She grabbed her coat, she went away, you know, never to be talked to again. But it was just this beautiful moment and, we were both kind to each other, you know? Excuse me, got outta the way. Here’s your coat, . It literally stuck with me for the last five days. Like it’s, it’s a.

[00:21:23] Kelli Harding: Right, exactly. And, and not only that, but there’s this knock on effect too, or a ripple effect, or virtuous circle, if you like, that term where I suspect ’cause you probably felt like a mood uplift from that. And in fact, we do feel happier that we’re actually more likely to go out and be kinder to someone else in our path that, you know, that we encounter.

[00:21:43] Kelli Harding: So in of. That actually Jonathan reminds me, since your listeners are interested in success and, wealth and money and things like that is, it used to be thought that people would be happy once they were successful.

[00:21:57] Kelli Harding: But it looks like it actually, it might be the other way [00:22:00] around, that happiness is actually a predictor of success, which, It’s just kind of one of those fun things. ’cause it means that that actually investing in ourselves and investing in our education and our wellbeing is actually a great way to.

[00:22:15]

[00:22:19] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m going back to this concept of, recalling kindness as a, potential benefit for, for happiness and wellbeing. Have you heard of the, loving kindness meditation Like where you, where you sit down and you sit down and you say, you know, may you be happy.

[00:22:33] Jonathan DeYoe: You think about someone that’s really close to you. May you be happy. May you be healthy, may you live with. Freedom and, and may you be free from suffering. Right? And then you think about someone that, yeah, you may have just met in a grocery store, don’t know ’em well. You do the same May, you, may, you, may you then you think about someone that you don’t like or that is a pain in the butt or someone that you have an argument and you do that you wish them the same kinds of things.

[00:22:53] Jonathan DeYoe: I notice that people who spend a lot of time in loving kindness meditation are just spreaders of kindness. They [00:23:00] just. They’re just open and sharing with the world and just they’re loving I didn’t really put that together, but that’s, they have more wellbeing.

[00:23:06] Jonathan DeYoe: They’re experiencing wellbeing themselves because of the practice, and then they’re out in the world just sharing it and that pays it forward

[00:23:13] Kelli Harding: Right. It’s

[00:23:14] Jonathan DeYoe: more Loving kindness. We

[00:23:15] Jonathan DeYoe: need more loving kindness.

[00:23:18] Kelli Harding: I think it’s also really fun and empowering, because, you know, especially we were talking briefly about, you know, we happen to be recording this podcast during what feels like a very tumultuous time, sort of in the stock market. I think when you feel like things are out control, sometimes, you actually remember the stuff, control. How you show up in the world, how you think, taking time to meditate, like those are things you can control doing. Loving kindness. Meditation is something you can control and it totally impacts your day and it impacts the people around you.

[00:23:50] Kelli Harding: and actually there’s studies on that that you know, you are actually having an effect on like a friend of a friend by your showing up. Happier is. Wild. Fascinating. [00:24:00] So, actually just for you listening, just be aware, even when things feel so chaotic

[00:24:08] Kelli Harding: and.

[00:24:10] Jonathan DeYoe: I just wanna sit with that for a second. ’cause I think we do forget. I think we forget, we get overwhelmed and we forget coming back to workplace. because of the rat race, because of the grind, because we spend a lot of time working. So what can we do to two questions. What can, , an employer do?

[00:24:26] Jonathan DeYoe: What can the workplace do to sort of, . Build a more connected or more kind workplace. , and then what can we do when we’re at work to do that?

[00:24:36] Kelli Harding: Okay, so great questions. And also let’s think this through because we spend a third of our lives at work and we wanna make sure that we’re happy there and that we’re not just like waiting for five o’clock or,, whenever our shift is over. , so this is another place I encourage people to feel empowered.

[00:24:50] Kelli Harding: ’cause it’s not always gonna come top down, right? Like there are just some workplaces that are not great environments. But you as an individual showing up can make a difference. So we know that if you [00:25:00] have like a best friend at work, you’re actually far more likely to be happy and more engaged in your workplace.

[00:25:05] Kelli Harding: So, do what you can to connect to the people that are around you and help others feel supported and have their back. , you know, that makes a really big difference and. The irony is we know, Jonathan, that the way our brain works is we’re actually better problem solvers when we feel supported and relaxed, right?

[00:25:22] Kelli Harding: Like, like if you’re under stress and in a tense situation, you are not using all your brain functioning, you’re much more likely to be going back to sort of like those more primitive functions and fight or flights. So when we are relaxed and feel comfortable and supported, that is actually a great sign for productivity.

[00:25:38] Kelli Harding: , I’m just gonna add onto that one layer. There is this insane data that has just come out as part of the World Happiness Report in 2025 and it’s been done from the, at Oxford, from Indeed.

[00:25:54] Kelli Harding: And I forget their end, but it was humongous, , that showed basically the happiest workplaces [00:26:00] are the most productive and the most financially successful. So, , there is a really, , a business case for this as well in terms of, , making sure that our workplace is a happy place to be. . Especially if you’re thinking long-term success of a company.

[00:26:15] Kelli Harding: , so there’s that. , the other thing is, , when it comes to workplaces, and this is something I think about a lot in medicine, is, we tend to not be as kind if we’re in a rush. , and so there’s like tons of, , evidence on this and we’re tend to be more biased. We just go like straight to like our, go-to responses and don’t necessarily connect with the other person by.

[00:26:36] Kelli Harding: If you can, even if you’re in a tense situation, slow down a little bit. Even if it means like taking 10 seconds before you respond to someone, or, like taking a pause to connect with someone before you dive into the content. Odds are you’re gonna be actually nicer and, , kinder and able to, , better solve the problem or challenge that’s in front of you.

[00:26:58] Kelli Harding: Sort of an easy thing to do, [00:27:00] but hard to do and practice a lot. I think about that with meditation. Right? I forget, , was it Gandhi that said , I feel like there’s a quote about like, if you have a really busy day, then they’re gonna have to meditate twice as long that day, so,

[00:27:15] Jonathan DeYoe: it’s a good story about the, the guy who says, , who goes to the monastery and says, you know, if I really dedicate myself, , and I really work hard. how long? Until I’m enlightened and the monk says, well, probably 10 years.

[00:27:24] Jonathan DeYoe: And he goes that long. What if I, what if I do twice as much and I work even harder in the monks as well? Probably 20 years. Then like that’s, yeah, , don’t grind it out. You know? Gotta, right. I love it. Yeah. Love the

[00:27:34] Jonathan DeYoe: story. So. The workplace has changed in the last, since the pandemic, it’s hybrid, remote workplace.

[00:27:41] Jonathan DeYoe: How does that factor in? ‘ some of my best friends are, they go to work once a week. I go to, I go into the office once every couple weeks. I don’t go in every

[00:27:47] Jonathan DeYoe: week, even not even a single

[00:27:48] Kelli Harding: yeah. Yeah. So the workplace has really changed. And it’s funny though, ’cause I still need a lot of people who feel somewhat chained to a desk, even though they’re not theoretically anymore [00:28:00] chained to a desk. So, , like our old mindsets sometimes travel with us to new places. , so I would challenge you to think about are there ways that , if you are working alone, and I know a lot of loneliness.

[00:28:10] Kelli Harding: Happens for remote workers. , ’cause learning, , we’re missing those like conversations with the water cooler that used to happen is how can you build that in for yourself or your company? I know, , some of the companies I’ve consulted with now, do you know, , , retreats periodically, they’re much more intentional about bringing people together.

[00:28:27] Kelli Harding: They’ll sometimes do these sort of like. Meet and greet things that, allow people to get to know each other as human beings outside of just sort of work stuff. , or yeah, can you go work somewhere that there are other people around? Can you meet people for lunch? , that’s one that’s been a really great data point that shows that it’s, , you know, we are much happier if we’re meeting people for meals, whether it be lunch and or dinner.

[00:28:51] Kelli Harding: Which is, , something to consider. there’s this data from Julian Holstad out in Utah who’s just wonderful and has done a lot of the meta-analysis [00:29:00] looking at loneliness that the most recent surgeon general, , Dr. Vivek Murthy Hy has used that, loneliness.

[00:29:06] Kelli Harding: As bad for us as smoking about 15 cigarettes a day. , and other well-known risk factors like heavy alcohol use and even being overweight. , so when you think about your health, like add socializing into it as seriously as you do, like going to the gym or eating healthy or getting enough sleep is what I tell patients at least.

[00:29:26] Jonathan DeYoe: I could actually go down a complete sideways track here. I’m trying to, trying to avoid that,

[00:29:30] Jonathan DeYoe: but yeah, it.

[00:29:32] Kelli Harding: I am so interested.

[00:29:34] Jonathan DeYoe: Well, a after not. So I’ve, uh, I’m a workaholic. Like I’ve been a workaholic forever. I’m slowly trying to pair that back. It’s changed my entire relationships with lots of people. , I’ve added back some friends, , and it’s very difficult for me to reach out on a regular basis and say, Hey, let’s get lunch, or, Hey, let’s get dinner, or, Hey, let’s go for a drink, or, Hey, let’s, it’s, it’s just.

[00:29:55] Jonathan DeYoe: there’s a hurdle there, and I know every time I do it, it’s just warm and it’s great and it’s wonderful, [00:30:00] but then the next time, then I, ugh, that’s done and now I gotta do it again. And it just, it’s a slog. It’s like. Frankly, it’s like meditation. You have to return your attention to your breath, and you have to do it over and over and over and over.

[00:30:10] Jonathan DeYoe: And as you do it over and over, it gets easier. And I know that, and I know this will get easier too, but I’m not too easy yet. And it’s just, it’s a slog. so

[00:30:19] Jonathan DeYoe: anyway, that’s what I was gonna go to.

[00:30:21] Kelli Harding: So actually it’s really interesting ’cause you’re right, and what you’re describing is the difference between sort of like, a habit versus like an outcome or a, I think they call it an A telic activity versus a telic activity where it’s like, or going to the gym, right? Like you gotta go. You gotta exercise every day or the muscles are gonna atrophy.

[00:30:40] Kelli Harding: And our socializing is the same way, like for the pandemic or for people working at home. Oftentimes our social muscles kind of atrophy, so we have to be kind of intentional about doing those reps. And that might be meaning to be more intentional about setting up those lunchtime, , gatherings or coffees or whatever it might [00:31:00] be. I think the other thing is there’s this thing called the loneliness loop that you can get stuck in. And I know like, I’ve seen myself get into it, , where if you are not sort of intentional, , and you just sort of make it a practice, it feels like a big hurdle to like, reach out to somebody and say, Hey, you wanna grab coffee?

[00:31:18] Kelli Harding: , so the more you do it, the easier it becomes. It’s actually not unlike exercise in that way. Right? Like if you run a half a mile or a mile every day, all of a sudden that becomes no big deal.

[00:31:29] Kelli Harding: You know, sometimes if that feels overwhelming, you can break it down and start smaller. So I’ve made this policy with myself. If I am free and I think of someone, I will just send them a little text to say like, and I happen to have my phone with me.

[00:31:42] Kelli Harding: Like I’ll text to say like, Hey, I’m thinking about you just. Wanted to say hi or, you know, whatever it is, or just wanna check in. , and it’s funny because when you’re on the receiving end of those notes, it’s so nice, right? Like to know somebody’s thinking about you can totally change the course of your day.

[00:31:56] Kelli Harding: , and so I’m just trying to do that a little more intentionally and then it [00:32:00] makes like asking someone out to dinner feel less, , like a big deal kind of. And I’m a total introvert, so all this I have to like also muster up a little bit of courage to.

[00:32:10] Jonathan DeYoe: , yeah, I’m, I’m kind of the same. , so just that actually something that I think it was a Huberman podcast that actually suggested that outreach to your close friends on a regular basis just to say, I’m thinking of you, or, I really appreciate you, or I. That sort of builds that muscle, like you said,, that’s like the first rep and then later you, you say, Hey, let’s go for coffee or dinner.

[00:32:30] Jonathan DeYoe: But you start with just, hey, thinking of you. And I think of course, make it

[00:32:34] Jonathan DeYoe: easy first step. It’s nice.

[00:32:36] Kelli Harding: Yeah. And actually I wanna, um, because you ask if we have time, um, I’ve heard you ask other guests, so I’m just gonna preempt it here, about something you’ve changed your mind on recently. And I have to say, actually being intentional about. Meeting up for meals is something I have totally changed my mind on because the data just says it’s so good for us.

[00:32:54] Kelli Harding: Like, it is very much the culture in medicine to just like, you know, eat at your computer writing notes [00:33:00] and like not to socialize. And I feel like having seen the data it, ., I am not guilty When I like decide I’m gonna go out and meet a colleague for lunch or meet up with a friend or a family member, like I am much more intentional about that.

[00:33:14] Kelli Harding: , because the data shows one, I’ll come back to my work and actually like, be much more efficient. And two, , it’s good for my health and wellbeing and theirs. , the most recent world happiness data. Out of a possible 14 lunches and dinners a week, about 13 would be optimum happiness. So I suspect most Americans come in around like six meals, , just so you know, and as a benchmark. But the happier countries often are closer to that 13. And interestingly enough, , 14 meals, actually the happiness dips for some reason. I’m not sure why that is, and there’s theories about that, but, , but having some choice about eating with people is good.

[00:33:52] Jonathan DeYoe: the only way that that would functionally be possible in my life is if I lived with my family, right? If, if everyone was there and we had [00:34:00] meals together, , breakfast and, and dinner and maybe lunch in the office or something like that,

[00:34:04] Jonathan DeYoe: so I wonder if that speaks to the data about why people who are in families are partnered, are happier if it’s just because they’re eating

[00:34:13] Jonathan DeYoe: regular with somebody.

[00:34:15] Kelli Harding: , , it’s thought to be sort of a proxy for social connection, right? So, you know, it turns out that countries that did better on the happiness report also, ,, tend to have more intergenerational households or, you know, people living in proximity that people that they love and it’s harder.

[00:34:31] Kelli Harding: I feel like technology is so wonderful that it allows us to connect and have this conversation, but it. On the flip side of it, of course it can be really isolating in its own way. So we just have to be much more mindful about that.

[00:34:43] Jonathan DeYoe: I want to give you a chance to talk about our kind of club. So just tell us about our kind of club.

[00:34:48] Kelli Harding: Oh, So I, along with two dear friends of mine, actually from Berkeley close to where you are, , one who’s a career diplomat and one who is a leadership executive, , and has worked in HR for many [00:35:00] years. , we decided that we needed to do so. To take all this data and put it into action.

[00:35:05] Kelli Harding: And so we created something called our kind of club. Our goal is lofty. It’s to create a kinder and healthier world for all. And , the idea is that we can do what we can, knowing the data and the science of kindness to, , make things better for each other. So right now we have a number of different offerings we’ve been doing it now. It’s been about a year and a half. And, , we’ve had people from 18 countries join us and, you know, it’s been a challenging year and a half in the world, but it’s been so heartwarming and so, , one of the things we do is a kindness campfire. And, people, it’s free.

[00:35:38] Kelli Harding: People gather online, you can share stories of kindness and hear stories of kindness. I. It is so uplifting. I have gone on days that have been really tough and I always leave uplifted and it’s remarkable because that’s what the data shows and it turns out that, , it’s really easy to do. , our goal is to make that sort of widespread and a drop in things so that people could [00:36:00] feel that sense of connection when they’re having a hard day. .

[00:36:02] Kelli Harding: Where, how do you have conversations with people who maybe have different opinions than you but still treat each other with kindness? , you know, because part of life isn’t just being nice and polite, but also being kind and trying to understand where someone else is and curious where someone else is coming from.

[00:36:19] Kelli Harding: , yeah, so we’re doing that. You can find it on our kind of club, , is our website or which was actually designed by my, , now 13-year-old son. So it’s got some like, funny animals on there, but it’s great and it will get you to where you need to go. , or, , my website, Kelly Harding, MD. As well. You can check it out on there and sign up.

[00:36:38] Kelli Harding: We also have like a Dose of Kindness newsletter that you can get. But um, yeah, thank you for asking. It has been an incredible journey. We’ve been doing live campfires too. , we just did one at the World Happiness Summit that probably had about a thousand people at it, so it was great.

[00:36:53] Jonathan DeYoe: as a quick follow on, so you guys host these or are you, do you look for people to

[00:36:57] Jonathan DeYoe: host them in like local spaces?

[00:36:59] Kelli Harding: [00:37:00] So we started with us hosting it, but it’s growing so much. We’re looking for people to host too. So if you’re interested in hosting, if you wanna do it virtual or in person, we’ll give you the playbook. It’s a really simple formula and anyone can do it. And you know, we sort of have like a intro and a closing just to make sure that everybody feels.

[00:37:17] Kelli Harding: Seen and heard and , it’s expanding rapidly to the point it’s, , becoming very much its own organization. So,

[00:37:25] Jonathan DeYoe: I love

[00:37:25] Kelli Harding: you for asking. Yeah,

[00:37:28] Jonathan DeYoe: We did things a little bit out of order. You’ve already answered

[00:37:30] Jonathan DeYoe: one of the final questions, but I wanna ask you one

[00:37:32] Kelli Harding: I did my homework. Yeah. So.

[00:37:36] Jonathan DeYoe: if you could get the truth about one, any question about your life or future, I can’t give you the truth. what question would you ask?

[00:37:44] Kelli Harding: I would love to know if, if I have been able to have the impact, I hope for. like is what I’m. Doing, actually leading to what I hope it will do, which is to, of course create a kinder and [00:38:00] healthier world for all. So, , that would be wonderful.

[00:38:03] Jonathan DeYoe: Thank you, Dr. Harding. This has been wonderful and I’m gonna reach out to you about our kind of club and maybe I can host one in the Berkeley, Oakland area. That’d be super fun. Thank you so much for coming on.

[00:38:13] Kelli Harding: We would love that. And also thank your kindness. This was our second attempt at this and I really appreciate the second chance. So thank you

[00:38:20] Jonathan DeYoe: Jonathan.

[00:38:21] Jonathan DeYoe: You’re You’re welcome. Thank you.

[00:38:23] Outro: Thanks for listening. Full show notes for each episode, which includes a summary, key takeaways, quotes, and any resources mentioned are available at Mindful Money. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. And if you’re enjoying the content and getting value from these episodes, please leave us a rating and review ratethispodcast.com/mindfulmoney. We’ll be sure to read those out on future [00:39:00] episodes.