Jillian Johnsrud — Retire Often: A New Blueprint for Work and Rest

[00:00:00] Jillian Johnsrud: When you look at burnout specifically, because it’s so prevalent, like about 89% of Americans are burned out. And the effect burnout has on our body is really well documented. Like it reduces our creative thinking. It reduces our motivation, it reduces our energy. I mean, the human body’s so incredible. Burnout is a survival mode, which is awesome and wonderful because throughout history there are things we needed to survive. There are things that we needed to get through, whether we were in a war torn country or famine, or we had to like walk across the desert for six months. Like we needed to be able to narrow that vision and narrow that focus to get us out of a bad situation. But the problem is, in the modern world, sometimes we use that same mechanism that makes us so resilient not to remove ourself from the thing that’s harming us, but to stay in it.

[00:00:56] Intro: [00:01:00] Do you think money takes up more life space than it should? On this show, we discuss with and share stories from artists, authors, entrepreneurs, and advisors about how they mindfully minimize the time and energies. Spent thinking about money. Join your host, Jonathan DeYoe, and learn how to put money in its place and get more out of life.

[00:01:30] Jonathan DeYoe: hey. Welcome back on this episode of the Mindful Money Podcast.

[00:01:32] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m chatting with Jillian Johnsrud. This is the second time I’ve had Jillian on the podcast. You can listen to the original one that happened about three years ago. It’s episode 21. Jillian is one of the OG voices in the FIRE (Finish Independent Retire Early) movement.

[00:01:47] Jonathan DeYoe: What stands out for me with Joan is that she’s never expected to be able to retire early and been part of that movement at same time. So instead she’s hatched a plan to retire often. So is that, I dunno, [00:02:00] Finish Independent Retire Often, FIRO? I know if that’s a new, new movement. She was inspired by the idea of sabbatical years and set out to sprinkle retirements throughout her life.

[00:02:09] Jonathan DeYoe: And at 40, she’s taken over a dozen mini retirements, allowing her to pursue dreams like living abroad, traveling to 27 countries, adopting four kids, plus having two biological kids investing in real estate and touring the US in a camper. She has taught, coached, and written about mini retirements for almost a decade.

[00:02:28] Jonathan DeYoe: She hosts The Retire Often podcast and her book, Retire Often: How anyone can take multiple career breaks to unlock work-life balance, purposeful living, and financial freedom, will launch I believe in September of this year. Jillian, welcome back to the Mindful Money podcast.

[00:02:43] Jillian Johnsrud: Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here.

[00:02:46] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m excited to have you on. I know that we had this little conversation as we started and we sort of got over some issues that came up in the whole process, and we talked about some similarities, which are pretty amazing. , but I wanna encourage everyone to go back and listen to episode 21 to get [00:03:00] that full intro. We won’t do all that today, but do remind us where you’re calling from.

[00:03:04] Jillian Johnsrud: Montana. Beautiful, lovely, magical Montana. And I say that because we are recording in July and it’s the most magical month. If it were January, I would be like, I’m recording from nuclear fallout, cloudy, cold, Montana.

[00:03:22] Jonathan DeYoe: Oh, but great skiing. So I mean, there’s, Trade offs anyway. , can you share with mindful money audience just a single money experience that you had, like as a kid that became integral to your money story?

[00:03:34] Jillian Johnsrud: Hmm. Yeah. so probably the defining one was I was maybe 12. I was in junior high, like sixth, seventh grade. My mom, Was married to her second husband and it was not awesome. , not super healthy. no one was having a good time. And, and I went to her and I said, yeah, we can’t do this. We can’t, we can’t stay [00:04:00] here.

[00:04:00] Jillian Johnsrud: I don’t care where we go. I don’t care where we live, but like, this is clearly not working. my mom’s a very practical woman and she said, Jillian, I can’t raise three kids on my own. I’m like, sorry, this is the deal. And I, because I’m kind of, kind of an optimist, kind of, uh, idealistic was devastated and I went upstairs and I just like cried hot tears into my bed.

[00:04:26] Jillian Johnsrud: But I also had this realization, oh, money gives you options.

[00:04:31] Jonathan DeYoe: Hmm.

[00:04:32] Jillian Johnsrud: Oh, money gives you choices. And in that moment, I desperately wanted more choices. I wanted more options, and I never wanted to be in that spot again. , and so I had this massive motivation, this massive like point of clarity of like, I need to figure out how to be good with money.

[00:04:49] Jillian Johnsrud: Like I need to figure out how to save, because this is not gonna be, this is not gonna be my life.

[00:04:55] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. talk to have the feeling of, or the, the, drive, the [00:05:00] motivation to go after money comes from scarcity. , that was like, not, not necessarily scarcity, but it was choices.

[00:05:07] Jillian Johnsrud: Yeah, it was. You know, that’s interesting. It’s an interesting question. it wasn’t scarcity in that well, I hated being poor. I also had this mindset of like, I’m tough enough to be poor.

[00:05:20] Jonathan DeYoe: Hmm.

[00:05:20] Jillian Johnsrud: resilient enough. Like I can, I can live anywhere. I can do anything. Like, I had no fear of going without.

[00:05:30] Jillian Johnsrud: But I desperately wanted the freedom side, like that upside. , I remember at one point, maybe my senior year of high school, I was waiting tables. And this was Montana, cold, part of Montana, not even mild part of Montana, like 40 below part of Montana. And I remember telling my coworker, you know, screw it.

[00:05:49] Jillian Johnsrud: I think I’m just gonna live in my car. Like. And he was like, no, that’s a bad idea. And I’m like, no, I think I’ll be fine. I think I, I think, I think I’ll be fine. He was like, no, that’s a really bad idea. ,

[00:05:58] Jillian Johnsrud: it was a bad choice. [00:06:00] He was a hundred percent correct. It would’ve been a bad life choice. Um, was self-conscious about being poor. , and it was definitely, it was challenging, especially in my early twenties when I started making a little bit more money. And I realized, , my spouse at the time, and I, neither of us wanted to high earning professions.

[00:06:20] Jillian Johnsrud: And I had this realization of, oh, I can look rich or I can be rich, but we don’t make enough to have both. Like, I have to make a choice. I can be rich, but I’m gonna have to look poor or I can look rich, but I’m gonna have to be poor. And I was like, yeah, I wanna be rich. Like I’ll suck up my pride and I’ll work through my insecurity about like looking poor if I can actually have money and choices I

[00:06:47] Jonathan DeYoe: Hmm. Interesting take. so did your mom stay married to that man for a while or I.

[00:06:52] Jillian Johnsrud: a long time.

[00:06:54] Jonathan DeYoe: A long time. So you, you grew up and exited that house while they were

[00:06:57] Jillian Johnsrud: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:58] Jonathan DeYoe: at what point in [00:07:00] your arc did you start thinking about this idea of many retirements?

[00:07:05] Jillian Johnsrud: Yeah, it was the first year my ex and I were married. I was 19. I was reading through the Old Testament, like all the cool kids do, um, and. Typical 19-year-old stuff. , but I got to this idea of sabbatical years and it’s just like, I don’t know if I’d ever heard of it. It was a very novel idea. And I remember we were driving, we were living in southern Idaho, driving in my geo metro, very classy, through the back roads and I was like, Hey.

[00:07:34] Jillian Johnsrud: So I’ve been reading about this idea, like, that would be amazing. And he was like, um, yeah, I don’t think people do that anymore. Like, I don’t think that’s a thing. He’s like, I’m not even sure if they did it then I think it was just an idea. And I was like, yeah, but like, what if we did like, this would be so cool.

[00:07:51] Jillian Johnsrud: Think of all the things we could do and like we could travel and these dreams we could pursue. And he was like, yeah, I don’t know. Like very [00:08:00] unconvinced. , but there again, like I said, I’m kind of. I’m kind of an optimist. I’m kind of an idealist. And I thought, but what if we could, and, you know, he had all these logistical questions and I had none of the answers.

[00:08:12] Jillian Johnsrud: which is a big part of the reason I wrote the book in the last 23 years. I figured out that the answers to those logistical questions, and I was like, maybe I should just write all those down in one spot.

[00:08:24] Jonathan DeYoe: so just tell us what is a mini retirement? define it for us.

[00:08:27] Jillian Johnsrud: Yeah, so we can go by lots of names. Like a lot of people use sabbatical or gap year hiatus, career break mostly interchangeably. Like pick whichever one resonates with you. But I define a mini retirement by three characteristics. One, it’s a month or longer. , some people will be six months, two years, whatever.

[00:08:46] Jillian Johnsrud: But I find a month is like the minimum effective dose. The second one, stepping away from your primary career. So for a lot of people it would be like a big adventure or travel or hobbies or health or whatever. But some people do use it to [00:09:00] explore a career pivot or to go back to school or to work in like a different field.

[00:09:05] Jillian Johnsrud: , you know, so it can have like a professional vibe to it, but stepping away from your primary career. And then the third one is to focus on something that matters to you. , something that’s meaningful, maybe enjoyable, but something that, Changes us as, as humans.

[00:09:22] Jonathan DeYoe: so, okay. Uh, stepping away from your primary career, does that mean starting over when you come back? I mean, how is that realistically possible? And then how, how does one go about planning that very first one? Talk to the boss. You know, that seems like a, that’s a big ask.

[00:09:37] Jillian Johnsrud: Yeah. So there’s three ways people can get a mini retirement. Usually you can negotiate it off from your employer. You love where you work. You’ve been there for two years, 10 years, whatever, negotiate off a month, two months, six months, and you come back to the same job and everything’s awesome.

[00:09:57] Jillian Johnsrud: For some people, they will take a mini-retirement in [00:10:00] between jobs, so same career, but in between getting that next job, which can be very advantageous. And it’s one of the reasons can help our financial trajectory and our professional trajectory is that for most people switching employers is how they can secure like the biggest promotion and the biggest pay increase, which can massively change your lifetime earning potential.

[00:10:27] Jillian Johnsrud: Just being strategic of, you know, if I were talking to someone who were 24, I would say every three to five years. Take a mini retirement switch. Employers, like, just make that part of the plan. The plan does not need to be, you work for the same employer for 40 years. because statistically you will not be compensated for that choice.

[00:10:48] Jillian Johnsrud: So make that part of the plan of every time I switch jobs, I’m going to take a month off. I’m going to take six months off. , for people that tend to work in one company for a long period of time, like 10 years, 15 years, take a year [00:11:00] off in between. Before you start the next one. And then the third way is sometimes like.

[00:11:04] Jillian Johnsrud: Unexpected stuff happens. Usually bad stuff. You get laid off. , you need to take, FMLA, you know, you have a family member you need to take care of. You get injured and you are suddenly not at work. and those cases, I kind of call it like a mini-retirement Go Bag Have some plans, have some money set aside when that unexpected opportunity shows up.

[00:11:28] Jillian Johnsrud: Grab your bag and like, you’re ready. you are ready to do the thing and focus on that thing that matters.

[00:11:35] Jonathan DeYoe: So not the one where someone is sick and you have to take care of them. ’cause that you, you’d know where you’re going then. But let’s say you can’t go to work for some reason, you’ve been told. Right? and so you’re saying have a plan in the bank that’s like, Hey, we’re gonna go to Paris and just have it there waiting.

[00:11:51] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m gonna go to Paris for a month. , and if something happens, it enables that boom, you’re, you’re off to Paris and know what that trigger is.

[00:11:57] Jonathan DeYoe: What would create that? I mean, you’re laid off [00:12:00] and you’re, you have money set aside. So explain that. Explain getting ready financially for the thing that just boom throws, you know, lands in your lap.

[00:12:07] Jillian Johnsrud: that mini retirement go bag. I suggest coming up with three or four or five different plans, different scenarios. like I know you live downhill skiing and you might be like, that’s what I would do. I would downhill ski for a month. And then you get laid off in July and you’re like, oh. Or maybe not that plan.

[00:12:23] Jillian Johnsrud: So some of ’em are seasonals. You

[00:12:25] Jonathan DeYoe: There’s, you know, there’s another side.

[00:12:26] Jillian Johnsrud: yeah, there you go. so some of them are seasonal dependent, and so you want stuff that fits into different things. I usually encourage people to come up with an idea that would take about a month, , because then even if you’re have six months off, you can still do the one month thing.

[00:12:43] Jillian Johnsrud: Or if you have a six month plan and you only get a month off, it might not work. find these different things and find different things that, okay. So for this one, I would have to travel, but this one I could do at home or this one I could do anywhere. So for example, I did have, , I had a coaching [00:13:00] client that, her mom was developing Alzheimer’s.

[00:13:04] Jillian Johnsrud: And she needed to go and take, you know, three months of leave and go kind of get her mom set up with better care. She also, at the same time, was really struggling with burnout, and so we kind of tackled both goals. Getting your mom set up, having that quality time with her, like while she’s at her best, , and making as many of those memories as possible.

[00:13:27] Jillian Johnsrud: But also how can we use this time to help you recover from burnout and accomplish this other goal. So it could be something like recovering from burnout. It could be. A meditation practice or you wanna learn guitar or you wanna garden, I took a month off to learn tango. , it’s very possible if you’re like, oh, like my sister needs my help and I need to go be there.

[00:13:48] Jillian Johnsrud: And you wanna learn tango, that maybe you could still do tango lessons two or three nights a week while you know you’re helping a family member.

[00:13:56] Jonathan DeYoe: you make it sound like, oh yeah, yeah. You just, you just plan it out and you do it. [00:14:00] That’s not a big deal. I, I’m just trying to, you know, we do traditional financial planning. We say you set emergency fund. Then you start just pumping money into your savings and you maybe have some dedicated savings for vacation, some dedicated savings.

[00:14:13] Jonathan DeYoe: Are you just saying, Hey, let’s add another bucket for, , mini retirements. , and then where does that bucket come in the grand scheme of your long-term financial plan? Does it come before retirement savings? I mean, that’s pretty important. , does it come before college savings for the kids or is that just, Hey, that’s my personal choice.

[00:14:30] Jillian Johnsrud: I would say for most people alongside of traditional retirement savings. , those are things that can happen simultaneously. , And many retirements, they don’t necessarily have to be super expensive. So especially if people are early in their financial journey. One of the tools I have people look at in the book for planning their next mini retirement is if you have a bucket list of 50 different cool things you would want to do.

[00:14:58] Jillian Johnsrud: Let’s think about the cost of [00:15:00] each of these things and let’s front load the affordable ones. Let’s do those ones first, because that sequence of events, , and there’s a correlation of oftentimes the things that are affordable are better suited when you’re at your highest capacity. And there are a lot of things that are very expensive that you could do in other decades of your life.

[00:15:24] Jillian Johnsrud: , I really wanna do an around the world cruise with like 10 or 15 of my friends. It sounds so much fun. I’m 42. I could do that at 50. I could do that at 60. I could probably do that at 70. , if I take good care of myself and with a little bit of luck, I might be able to do that at 80. `, but there’s other things.

[00:15:41] Jillian Johnsrud: Like I took a 10 week road trip with my kiddos when they were all little in a pop-up camper. That one wasn’t gonna wait. It also wasn’t super expensive. We rented out our house while we did it. I think we broke even.

[00:15:55] Jillian Johnsrud: , so there’s a lot of ways you can do this. Really affordable. I took a month off to learn tango.

[00:15:59] Jillian Johnsrud: I set a [00:16:00] budget of a thousand dollars, You can set up a brokerage account or a savings account, put a thousand dollars, put $10,000 in there, and if the opportunity arises, the reason I like people to plan this out ahead of time, especially for the mini retirement go bag, is that usually those opportunities can have a little bit of a negative emotion to them if you get laid off.

[00:16:24] Jillian Johnsrud: Even if you hated your job, even if you have this amazing severance package, there can be a little bit of, oh, I was rejected and they don’t like me and they don’t value me. And, and it can be hard to emotionally pivot from like, oh, this kind of crappy, kind of good, but kind of crappy thing happened to like, Hey, let’s go do this cool adventure.

[00:16:44] Jillian Johnsrud: But if you have the plan and if you have the money, you might still mope for a couple days. You might mope for a week, but you might be able to pivot and go do something really cool.

[00:16:56] Jonathan DeYoe: I can’t imagine. I, I don’t think in my lifetime I’ve ever had, and [00:17:00] so let me admit, I’m a workaholic. maybe I’m not identifying the opportunities I. Maybe that’s because I’ve been trained to work, work, work, work, work. I’m a good South Dakota boy. Like I was raised, my dad was a workaholic.

[00:17:13] Jonathan DeYoe: So from just a 10,000 foot view, how does one shift from this traditional work life? work close 65 and then retire mindset to It’s okay. Even good, even better. If I take these many retirements, how do I make that mental shift?

[00:17:28] Jillian Johnsrud: So there can definitely be a cultural context that makes this tough,

[00:17:35] Jillian Johnsrud: there are some cultures that really value rest time. They value like spending time with people they love and like slow meals and like there’s a vibe out there.

[00:17:47] Jillian Johnsrud: I did not grow up with that vibe,

[00:17:49] Jonathan DeYoe: Spain, you’re talking about Spain though, in Italy and the where that in the,

[00:17:55] Jillian Johnsrud: We will assume you have a worldwide audience, but yes, in America, , there’s a [00:18:00] work culture.

[00:18:01] Jillian Johnsrud: and I grew up in a small town in Montana, farming, ranching community. And these people survived generationally by working hard and by working all the time.

[00:18:14] Jillian Johnsrud: And so there was this mindset of like, if you are relaxing, if you’re having fun, if you’re enjoying yourself.

[00:18:21] Jillian Johnsrud: You’re probably doing it wrong like this, you’re probably making a bad life choice.

[00:18:26] Jonathan DeYoe: That’s me.

[00:18:27] Jillian Johnsrud: yeah. So it’s helpful to say, okay, well that’s, that’s one way to look at it. And whenever I’m trying to change like this internal narrative, what’s useful for me, and this is a little bit woowoo, but if it’s helpful, take it.

[00:18:43] Jillian Johnsrud: If not, be like, yeah, she’s weird, but what’s helpful for me if I have the strong internal narrative. The tricky thing to changing that is that it worked. It worked for our grandparents. We saw it work, it worked for our parents. We saw it worked and it might’ve worked for [00:19:00] us for a long time. And so it’s hard to say to something that was super effective.

[00:19:05] Jillian Johnsrud: Actually, that doesn’t work. ’cause we know it worked. Like her subconscious knows like, Hey, that was a great thing. Me working super hard had good results in my life. So my little woowoo thing is to be like, Thank you so much for how that mindset helped me, how it helped my parents, how it helped my grandparents.

[00:19:21] Jillian Johnsrud: That was super useful. But going forward to this next place I want to go, I’m gonna need something else. So I appreciate the contribution and I’m gonna go in a different direction. And then trying to adapt whatever that new mental framework is. So one of the ones that’s helpful for me in the terms of mini retirement for ambitious people, for motivated people, for people who are so dedicated and passionate about what they do is there again, small farming, ranching, community.

[00:19:54] Jillian Johnsrud: Small town, high school basketball was a vibe. Like it was a thing. , it was [00:20:00] so important. , and I played basketball in high school and you get a whole bunch of like farming ranch and kids and you’ve never seen a group of people who are so obsessed with hard work and like sacrifice and struggle, so dedicated to the sport.

[00:20:14] Jillian Johnsrud: And we took a halftime every game. Yeah, not because we were lazy, not because we weren’t dedicated, not because we weren’t motivated, not because we weren’t obsessed with the outcome of the game, but because we were those things, we cared so much that we were willing to take a break to rest and to recover and to reimagine.

[00:20:36] Jillian Johnsrud: What the second half of this game is gonna be and the most dedicated, the most motivated, the most ambitious. Take a rest because it matters in the outcome because you get better results. It’s like if you run like a 300 meter dash, if you are 10% faster than all of the other players, you don’t win [00:21:00] 10% more races.

[00:21:01] Jillian Johnsrud: You win all the races. And when you are kind of obsessed with good outcomes and when it matters so much, you’re willing to do what you need to do to have that best possible outcome. And so I think it’s this reframing of, it’s not because I’m lazy, . I care about my work, I care about the outcomes and, and I’m willing to do what I need to do to bring my very best version of myself to this.

[00:21:24] Jonathan DeYoe: so I, I understand there’s a ton of exercise data that says you, you can’t just lift heavy every day. Like you, you burn yourself out. . You rip and tear muscle tissue, you can’t, you can’t do that. You have to have recovery. And I understand that.

[00:21:37] Jonathan DeYoe: And so there’s a ton of scientific data that says this. Is there similar data in the, , work and success in career data that says, does, does it really apply the

[00:21:47] Jillian Johnsrud: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:48] Jonathan DeYoe: it does?

[00:21:48] Jillian Johnsrud: Especially when you look at burnout

[00:21:51] Jillian Johnsrud: specifically, because it’s so prevalent. Uh, recent surveys look like about 89% of Americans are burned out, [00:22:00] and the effect burnout has on our body is really well documented. Like it reduces our creative thinking. It reduces our motivation, it reduces our energy.

[00:22:10] Jillian Johnsrud: I mean, the human body’s so incredible. Burnout is a survival mode,

[00:22:14] Jillian Johnsrud: which is. Awesome and wonderful because throughout history there are things we needed to survive. There are things that we needed to get through, whether we were in a war torn country or famine, or we had to like walk across the desert for six months.

[00:22:29] Jillian Johnsrud: Like we needed to be able to narrow that vision and narrow that focus to get us out of a bad situation. But the problem is, in the modern world, sometimes we use that same mechanism that makes us so resilient. Not to remove ourself from the thing that’s harming us, but to stay in it. And it’s a little bit being like, Hey, I’m really good at running away from a bear.

[00:22:55] Jillian Johnsrud: Maybe I should do this every day. Maybe this should be my thing and so when [00:23:00] people come back, their productivity, their motivation, you know, I even, I worked commission sales for a long time.

[00:23:07] Jillian Johnsrud: We were paid entirely on commission and whenever people were going through something in their personal life, like a divorce or a death, their sales numbers dropped by half.

[00:23:17] Jillian Johnsrud: And the thing that was so bizarre to me is that looking at them. In the work environment, I couldn’t tell. You weren’t like, oh, they look super depressed, or they look forgetful.

[00:23:28] Jillian Johnsrud: They seemed exactly like themselves and looking at their client interactions, I couldn’t perceive what was different, but something was a little off,

[00:23:38] Jillian Johnsrud: and that little off had a massive impact on their outcomes.

[00:23:43] Jonathan DeYoe: Very interesting. so, I’m imagining, well, I’m not imagining, I’m actually experiencing internally right now. , there’s a little bit of fear I have like this concept of losing momentum and career. and for the person that’s gonna use this month or two months in between jobs, is it that they, [00:24:00] say, okay.

[00:24:01] Jonathan DeYoe: I am going to create this two month window, so I’m going to quit this job and I’m gonna come back to another job. Are they identifying the job and putting in place before or are they coming back and just believing they’re gonna get another job? Because I’m, I’m thinking about different times in history where today being one of those times where it’s very difficult to find a job where employers, Have so many choices. You know, every job has 4,000 applicants right now, does this work today without a job. Can I come back and be pretty sure I’m gonna have it or can it be open-ended?

[00:24:33] Jillian Johnsrud: So. People do it both ways. I would say typically with smaller amounts, like one or two months, that is something that’s. Fairly reasonable to negotiate with your next employer. So you go out, you get the next job and you say, Hey, super excited. I can start in October. , and they’re like, oh, we really need you sooner.

[00:24:53] Jillian Johnsrud: And you’re like, okay, I can do September. , and you build yourself that gap before you start your next job. And there’s a lot [00:25:00] of advantages to that in that if. You’re super nervous about being unemployed and not having something lined up, and you need that sense of safety and security that can emotionally make your time off more enjoyable.

[00:25:14] Jillian Johnsrud: I would say typically with longer breaks, if you’re planning six months or a year, most people don’t have the next job lined up, with the exception of if you loved your employer, if they loved you. Usually you can’t negotiate a break more than three months just because the HR logistics on the backend are a little bit complicated for that.

[00:25:34] Jillian Johnsrud: But I’ve had a lot of people kind of have, , a tacit agreement of. As soon as I’m ready to come back to work, like I will reapply and employers being like, whenever you’re ready, whenever you’re done with this, please reapply. Like, we will find a place for you. We would love for you to come back. And that can be helpful just in knowing like, I have that option.

[00:25:55] Jillian Johnsrud: You know, you usually are not firmly committed to it, but it can create some [00:26:00] emotional, reassurance. The other thing that happens though, when people. Jump out on their own in the wild. And it’s one of the things I go through in the book of how do we, network, how do we set ourselves up to have really good outcomes in this?

[00:26:14] Jillian Johnsrud: , I think about a lot of this kind of like evil Knievel, if you all remember Evil Knievel. He used to do a lot of stunts on a motorcycle, but one of them was jumping over a canyon, which seems super dangerous on a motorcycle, but it’s a math thing. He built ramps on both sides, so it appeared very dangerous.

[00:26:34] Jillian Johnsrud: But actually the risk was pretty low because he had worked out the math on those trajectories. And a lot of this mini retirement is just building ramps on both sides. It’s the looks from the outside, very risky. But when you’re really thoughtful about building ramps, ah, your actual risk is quite a bit less.

[00:26:53] Jillian Johnsrud: So one of the, the funny things, especially in work cultures, American culture, people are obsessed with [00:27:00] everyone working. and it will create a discomfort. You not working, it will create a discomfort for everyone, for your parents, for your family, for your friends, for your old coworkers, for people you went to college with are just like, oh, why is he out in the world enjoying himself like he should be here.

[00:27:18] Jillian Johnsrud: And so there can be this effect, especially if you built a ramps a little bit. And in the book I outlined like how to phrase this, like specific conversations, but it sounds a little bit like. Maybe a LinkedIn post, maybe an email. I’ve super enjoyed working in this industry. I’ve loved working with all of you.

[00:27:36] Jillian Johnsrud: I’m gonna go off and do this really cool adventure for six months, but I’m really excited. You know, I hope our paths cross in the future if you happen to hear of anything. In the meantime, I’m kind of committed to this trip, but feel free to reach out. I would love to love to talk about it, and people are surprised.

[00:27:53] Jillian Johnsrud: I’m not surprised, but people are surprised how many job offers they get. While they’re on a mini retirement, [00:28:00] how desperately people are trying to pull them back into the workforce. And I think part of it is it just opens a loop. So people might not think of you for a job if you’re happily employed,

[00:28:11] Jillian Johnsrud: but if they know you’re just out there living your life, they saw the pictures on Facebook, they’re like, I know who would be perfect for this.

[00:28:18] Jillian Johnsrud: We need to get back him back into the nine to five. and so that’s a really common outcome and. I wouldn’t necessarily recommend it for your first mini retirement. Like the name of the book is Retire Often Not Have one massive Epic Mini Retirement because you can start small, start by negotiating a month off with your current employer, like

[00:28:42] Jillian Johnsrud: do two months in between jobs like build up.

[00:28:45] Jillian Johnsrud: As you gain that confidence and the clarity and work out kind of the learning curve, each one gets better.

[00:28:52] Jonathan DeYoe: Yep. do you know who Alex Honnold is?

[00:28:54] Jillian Johnsrud: Mm.

[00:28:55] Jonathan DeYoe: So, what’s the name of the movie? It’s Free Solo. He, free Soloed El Capitan. Um, which

[00:28:59] Jonathan DeYoe: Free solo, no [00:29:00] ropes. Insane. So the thing about Alex Honnold is, and they did this, I think maybe this is apocryphal, I’m not sure they did scans of his brain.

[00:29:07] Jonathan DeYoe: And so, He has no fear response. Like he is not afraid. And just imagine you’re 1500 feet up in the air, you’re not having ropes and you’re doing these dynamic climbing moves, that one little slip, you die. Right? And people do die doing it. He did it successfully. He has kids now. He doesn’t do this anymore.

[00:29:24] Jonathan DeYoe: , I think you are that. In, in the financial space because you don’t seem to have any concern or fear. And I, I am very successful. I was, I was raised poor. I have this scarcity mentality. I have a really hard time grasping this idea that I cannot work for six months and I’m gonna be, I’m gonna be able to be fine.

[00:29:43] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m actually in a position that I could retire and I’d be fine. But the idea of not working.

[00:29:47] Jonathan DeYoe: I don’t know what I would do with myself and I’ve been trying to figure this out for, for a while now. and it’s a little scary. So what do you say to people that aren’t worried about the money?

[00:29:58] Jonathan DeYoe: They’re worried about being [00:30:00] disengaged from the work community, you know, not being valued, you know, not being valuable at these kinds of things.

[00:30:06] Jillian Johnsrud: Yeah. I would say you absolutely should be worried about that stuff. Yeah, a hundred percent. those are real valid. Concerns that people struggle with. and you should have a plan for how you’re gonna work through this. it’s one of the reasons I love mini retirements, like being in the PHI community, Sometimes I would hear, ’cause I took a lot of mini retirements and then I became FI and I like left, we left our jobs and all that jazz. so I’d hear people be like, yeah, I’m like five years out from my FI number. Like I’m just gonna push really hard and then I’m gonna retire forever. And I’m like, oh, that’s so cool.

[00:30:41] Jillian Johnsrud: Have you done a mini retirement? They’re like, no, no, no. Like if I. If I did that, then like I might, I might be five, like six months later or something ridiculous. and it’s a little bit to me, like someone’s saying, I really wanna run a marathon, man. I’m so excited to run a marathon. This is gonna be awesome, like five more years and I’m gonna run a [00:31:00] marathon.

[00:31:00] Jillian Johnsrud: And I’m like, oh, that’s so cool. Do you like run five Ks? And they’re like, no, no, no, no. I’m just gonna sit at my desk for the next. For 60 hours a week for the next five years, and then I’m just gonna run a marathon and I’m gonna be awesome at it. And I’m like, well, that’s interesting. You don’t, you don’t wanna practice that at all.

[00:31:16] Jillian Johnsrud: They’re like, Nope. I’ve read some books on running marathons. I’ve listened to a couple podcasts about running marathons. I’m just gonna be great at it. It’s gonna be amazing. If I’m not at my desk, I’m gonna be so good at running marathons. And I’m like. Okay. That I don’t think that makes sense.

[00:31:32] Jillian Johnsrud: cause as humans we are not good at things we haven’t done before. Everything has a learning curve. Everything needs practice. Organizing your time in a meaningful way, we don’t have a lot of practice at you won’t be good at it. You’re going to have to practice finding meaning and purpose outside of our career.

[00:31:50] Jillian Johnsrud: We don’t have a lot of practice at, you’re not going to be good at it. Like Figuring out how to describe what you do, having people not be impressed with you. Like [00:32:00] all of this stuff has a learning curve there’s two options, you can figure out how to navigate this or you can die at your desk.

[00:32:10] Jonathan DeYoe: It’s a powerful point, so let’s figure it out.

[00:32:12] Jillian Johnsrud: Let’s figure it out and figure it out in a month, like spend, it’s so mind-boggling to me to be like, well, a a year sounds really hard. I don’t know how I would do that. There’s all these challenges, but 30 years, that’ll be a breeze. And I’m like, 30 years Is 30 times harder than one year.

[00:32:30] Jillian Johnsrud: If you can’t, hack it for a year, what makes you think that 30 years is gonna be easier? Um, it is not. So might as well practice.

[00:32:39] Jonathan DeYoe: who’s the book for? Because it’s, it seems like there is a certain amount of. we talk about, the community talks about sort of retirement income crisis. People aren’t saving enough for the thing that gets them to the real retirement. and I can understand if you’re talking to a 24-year-old and you can train them or teach them that this month break or two month break between jobs four or five times [00:33:00] throughout their career will be beneficial to their savings and their retirement income.

[00:33:03] Jonathan DeYoe: I can understand that. but it also seems a little privileged. Like you have to come from, not just an idea of enough, but I’m wondering if this is like targeted at the top 50% of socioeconomic status kind of stuff, where you think everyone can do this.

[00:33:20] Jillian Johnsrud: I think everyone can do this. so each demographic has a different challenge. I. I’ve worked with a lot of high earners people in important, significant jobs. Their challenge isn’t the money. They’re like, yeah, I’ve got $5,000. Whatever

[00:33:35] Jillian Johnsrud: their challenge is, I’m too important to leave my job. It would fall apart around me.

[00:33:42] Jillian Johnsrud: I’m the CFO. No one else can do my job. There’s no way I could take a month off. Everything would collapse. And that’s, that’s their challenge. where if I worked at Starbucks, if we work at Starbucks,

[00:33:53] Jillian Johnsrud: you’re like, no, it will survive without me. Like I make coffee, everyone will be fine. I can leave for a month and come back.

[00:33:59] Jillian Johnsrud: But like, I [00:34:00] don’t make enough money. I make like eight bucks an hour. The great thing for people, on the lower end of the earning spectrum the cost of a mini retirement is proportional to your income.

[00:34:11] Jillian Johnsrud: Because you’re replacing the amount you earn. If you earn $2,000 a month, you need to replace that 2000 where if you earn 20,000 a month, you have to replace 20,000.

[00:34:21] Jillian Johnsrud: And the cost of the adventure you do should also be proportional. So at most, I encourage people to plan for about 50% of whatever their take home pay is. So if you’re in 2000 a month, spend an extra thousand on your mini retirement. If you bring home 20,000 a month, maybe spend an extra 10,000 and it can be proportional because those are the lifestyles we’re accustomed to.

[00:34:44] Jillian Johnsrud: If you earn 2000 a month, you’re accustomed to like doing road trips and going camping and sleeping on your friend’s couch. I still love sleeping on people’s couches. That’s a whole nother story. , you know, where if you bring home 20, you might like want a hotel bed. , so the cost and lifestyle can be [00:35:00] proportionate.

[00:35:00] Jillian Johnsrud: so a great example. I was, in a med spa and the receptionist was like. Over the moon. She was chatting with everyone. She was so excited. And so I finally get my turn to like go up and like be like, what’s going on here? so this was Montana. She had never been on an airplane before.

[00:35:17] Jillian Johnsrud: She had never left the state of Montana. She was maybe 22 and she probably earns like 12 bucks an hour and she took a month off and went to Peru. Her very first trip outta the state of Montana was Peru, and she was over the moon. She was like, this absolutely life changing. I couldn’t believe it. You wouldn’t believe what Peru was like.

[00:35:37] Jillian Johnsrud: And she’s like, I didn’t go to cities. I went to like the deepest, darkest parts of the jungle. And I’m like, oh my gosh. This is like Paddington bear, like the deepest, darkest jungles of Peru. And she was so excited. But like, let’s look at the math of this. Let’s say she earns 2000 a month, so she had to save that 2000 trip to Peru.

[00:35:56] Jillian Johnsrud: I don’t think the jungles of Peru are very expensive. So she had a [00:36:00] plane ticket, maybe a thousand, maybe 1500 for whatever her jungle hut was. , If she saved, let’s say this is, 4,000. If she saved 200 bucks a month babysitting dog, sitting, mowing someone’s grass a couple times a month, she could do this every other year.

[00:36:22] Jonathan DeYoe: Hmm.

[00:36:22] Jillian Johnsrud: Every other year, she could have this life changing experience for dog sitting twice a month like There’s challenges for low earners, but it’s also easier to earn that extra money. or even a high earner, if you’re trying to cover like 30 grand, you can’t dog sit a couple times a month and like come up with 30 grand.

[00:36:41] Jillian Johnsrud: You, you need to do like real substantial things. But their challenge is, I’m too important to leave. And so we have to work through that obstacle.

[00:36:51] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Uh, talk about you’re pretty much a sole, you know, solopreneur, right? You have. Coaching clients you have speaking, and do you just [00:37:00] schedule a month off where you’re not gonna take coaching clients? and what do you recommend for people that are like more in the service industries who, you know, I, I have clients, those clients depend on me to, to pay attention to their finances.

[00:37:14] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m wondering how that kind of thing works in this space. And I’ve, I’ve taken two week vacations, which I’m on email the whole time.

[00:37:22] Jillian Johnsrud: Yeah. It’s, it’s funny, because when people are like, well, you’re self-employed, so then it’s super easy, cause like you’re your own boss. You can’t say no. And I’m like, oh my gosh. So I put a whole chapter in the book just about self-employed because it’s logistically so much harder.

[00:37:38] Jillian Johnsrud: and it takes so much more preparation, to be honest.

[00:37:41] Jillian Johnsrud: Like if you just negotiate a month off, that might take you a month, two months to like get that ready. If you’re self-employed, legitimately, it might take six months. If your business is a mess, it might take a year and it’s little bit like spring cleaning, like cleaning out a closet. You’re gonna pull all this stuff out and it’s gonna get way [00:38:00] messier before it gets better.

[00:38:02] Jillian Johnsrud: But the really cool thing for self-employed, it’s so much work, so much work upfront because you have to, you have to revamp your business. , and there’s all these reasons why it’s tough. You have to simplify things,

[00:38:14] Jillian Johnsrud: you have to automate things, you have to document things, and then you have to start to delegate things.

[00:38:20] Jillian Johnsrud: That’s a process. but. When you come back, not only do you have this amazing break and you feel better and refreshed and like excited to do your work again, , but when you come back, let’s say your work took you 40 hours a week before you left, you come back and you’re like, actually, now that I’ve done all that work, I could probably do this in 30 hours a week.

[00:38:41] Jillian Johnsrud: And so we have two choices. Depending where you are and depending on your personality, you might say, I like having an extra 10 hours a week off. I’m gonna start going to the gym. I’m gonna coach my kids like little league. This is awesome. Or people who were very motivated and ambitious are like, Hey, that big project, that [00:39:00] expansion, that thing that like I really wanted to do, but I didn’t have the time or the energy or the bandwidth.

[00:39:05] Jillian Johnsrud: Like we’re scaling this up. And they come back and they build bigger and they build more because now they’re not bogged down in these details that they should have fixed a long time ago, but they never had like the motivation or the inspiration to take care of that house cleaning.

[00:39:22] Jonathan DeYoe: as we’re talking, I’m realizing that there was one, so my, I don’t remember the date that we talked, but I think shortly after we talked. It must be shortly after we talked, my brother died. And so, my brother died in June of 21, so this is four years later. And I remember when he died, I didn’t go into the office for about six weeks.

[00:39:40] Jonathan DeYoe: I didn’t, I told the people in the office, Hey, I, I can’t function, I can’t take calls. I’m not gonna be responding to the emails. Just forget it. And they took care of it.

[00:39:48] Jillian Johnsrud: Yeah.

[00:39:49] Jonathan DeYoe: So in that circumstance, I took a sabbatical. I didn’t decide to take a sabbatical. I didn’t, you know, think about it, but I did it.[00:40:00]

[00:40:00] Jonathan DeYoe: Everything was fine. Like everything was fine. I came back to work. I came back slowly. I didn’t come. I did exactly what you said. I worked 20 hours a week instead of 40 hours a week, or 20 instead of 50 hours a week. And still when I think about, okay, but I can plan it. I feel like that’s like a justified sabbatical.

[00:40:16] Jonathan DeYoe: Like it’s okay for me to take some time off if I have a traumatic event in my

[00:40:19] Jonathan DeYoe: life, but it’s less okay to kind of adjust. You know, it feels privileged. It feels like I’m not fulfilling my responsibilities as a human if I’m not, and maybe that’s the culture. Maybe that’s, you know, my upbringing.

[00:40:31] Jonathan DeYoe: Maybe that’s all this garbage I have in my head.

[00:40:33] Jillian Johnsrud: Yep.

[00:40:34] Jonathan DeYoe: So help me and anyone else in this boat, what is the first thing I need to do that will help me get over that mental hurdle? Because it’s totally mental. I just prove that I can

[00:40:45] Jonathan DeYoe: do it. It’s completely mental

[00:40:47] Jillian Johnsrud: Yeah. So this, this is not uncommon, it’s a real thing. And so I think the best way is to be super specific about what the story is.

[00:40:59] Jillian Johnsrud: [00:41:00] What is that narrative? What is that thought process? Because sometimes things float around in our head, but we don’t fully articulate them.

[00:41:07] Jillian Johnsrud: And once you fully articulate them, it gives your conscious brain an opportunity to correct. I had this client once, and there’s so many stories that people tell themselves and she was thinking about taking a career break and she was like, gosh, I just, I’m worried. I’m worried that my grandma will be disappointed.

[00:41:27] Jillian Johnsrud: Like they came over here, they immigrated, they worked so hard. And then my parents worked so hard and they sent me to college and they were so proud of me and they sacrificed so much for me to have this career and to walk away feels like I’m just disappointing them

[00:41:41] Jillian Johnsrud: and I’m wasting all of the work they did.

[00:41:45] Jillian Johnsrud: And I was like, okay. So if you talk to your grandma, what do you think she would say? If you were gonna take this off. And she was like, oh God, she would be so happy for me. Like [00:42:00] she would be so happy for me that I’m like taking care of myself and like that I get to enjoy life. ’cause really that’s what she wanted for me.

[00:42:08] Jillian Johnsrud: And I was like, okay, well why don’t, I mean, would it be helpful if you had that conversation with her? And my client said she passed away about 10 years ago.

[00:42:18] Jonathan DeYoe: Hmm.

[00:42:19] Jillian Johnsrud: like, oh, the stories we tell ourselves, she was worried about disappointing someone who’s been gone for 10 years. But until we talk that through, until we articulate exactly where is this coming from, what does this sound like to me?

[00:42:36] Jillian Johnsrud: ’cause it’ll be a little bit different for everyone then we can’t, we can’t self-correct it. We can’t. Add new truth and new context to that old story. ’cause those old stories are frozen in time from when we wrote them. And they don’t get rewritten unless we like pull ’em up and look at ’em on the page and go, I get why I used to think that, but that’s not actually true anymore.

[00:42:57] Jillian Johnsrud: and so I think it’s that being really specific [00:43:00] and just being real honest I always say there’s a lot of different ways to look at something. Are you picking the story that’s helpful and true? It can’t be bs. It has to be honest, because if it’s bs, your subconscious will be like, that’s bs.

[00:43:14] Jillian Johnsrud: I don’t buy it. But is it helpful? Are stories that maybe they’re true, but they’re not helpful? Is it moving you in the direction that you want to go?

[00:43:25] Jonathan DeYoe: I’ve got a bizarre sideways question. what is your spiritual practice? you seem to be very grounded, very wise. like you’ve studied psychology for years or like, you understand how the brain works you, you meditate daily or pray. Rick, what is it that gives you this calmness about this?

[00:43:41] Jonathan DeYoe: And I, I’ll, I’ll just reference the whole Alex Honnold conversation before that you seem very like I. You can do this. Just, you know, be patient with yourself. Ask yourself direct questions. Be very clear about what you’re hoping to do, plan it out and do it.

[00:43:53] Jillian Johnsrud: You know, when you mentioned the Alex thing, it’s, it’s not that I don’t experience fear [00:44:00] quite the opposite. like you, I kinda grew poor, it was a little chaotic. I became hypervigilant.

[00:44:06] Jonathan DeYoe: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:07] Jillian Johnsrud: I didn’t feel safe, I felt entirely responsible for my own wellbeing.

[00:44:12] Jillian Johnsrud: , and so I had that vibe, which is okay and it’s super useful. Like honestly, sometimes you just sprinkle the right amount of trauma in and like you become a really successful adult.

[00:44:24] Jillian Johnsrud: That’s like the sweet spot. Um, but it’s also looking at like. Being intentional about where do I wanna go next? What do I need to get to that next spot?

[00:44:38] Jillian Johnsrud: Like, I’m thankful for what got me here, but is here where I want to be.

[00:44:43] Jillian Johnsrud: and just being willing, I think for me to look at the challenge, to look at the hesitation, to look at the fear and be like, okay, how are we gonna figure this out? and applying Elements of that mindset that were useful in the past of like, I am resilient, I am strong, I am [00:45:00] capable.

[00:45:00] Jillian Johnsrud: I can figure this out too. Like, yeah, it’s a problem. I face lots of problems. let’s figure out this problem too. Like, and, there is a sense of like being scared of risk, but also knowing I’m gonna be okay. Because like I can do hard things and I’ve done a lot of hard things and I can do hard things in the future.

[00:45:19] Jillian Johnsrud: I think it’s using those things that made us, but leveraging them in a way that moves us to the place we wanna go next.

[00:45:28] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think you’ve spent a lot of time specifically in this topic, so it’s like, and your experience, so it’s easy for you to talk about it. This kind of floats off and so yeah, whatever this happens and you just sort of work through it and it’s, yeah, you’ll, you’ll be fine.

[00:45:41] Jillian Johnsrud: It’s terrifying the first time.

[00:45:43] Jillian Johnsrud: And there again, why you should retire Often, like there’s such a learning curve, so start small, but you’ll gain confidence and clarity every single time you do it. You’ll get better at it every single time you do it, and then you can scale it up. But being [00:46:00] afraid doesn’t mean that it’s the wrong choice.

[00:46:03] Jillian Johnsrud: Fear’s like a

[00:46:03] Jillian Johnsrud: supernatural physical response. but I encourage people, ’cause honestly, Mini retirements are a hassle. it’s scary, it’s complicated. It’s work. It’s money. Like I encourage people like. When you look back on this in 10 years, in 40 years when you’re 80 in the rear view mirror, that hassle, that fear, it gets smaller and smaller and smaller. The meaningfulness, the joy, the importance like embrace, projected regret. If you would regret not doing this when you’re 80, feel the depth of that regret right now and.

[00:46:43] Jillian Johnsrud: let it give you some motivation and some clarity. because when you’re 80, the meaningfulness it expands, it gets so much bigger. so my podcasts, I interview people who’ve done many returns and some of ’em are my clients. So I walked them through this whole process.

[00:46:56] Jillian Johnsrud: I heard all this stuff, but now they’re two years out and I’ll [00:47:00] be like, so were you, you know, were you nervous about this? Were you scared? I know the answer because I was there and they’re like, no, it was pretty easy actually. I wasn’t nervous and I’m. Bs. Bs I have the notes. You were so scared. They legitimately don’t remember how big that fear felt.

[00:47:19] Jonathan DeYoe: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:20] Jillian Johnsrud: ’cause all they remember was incredible experience and all the growth and, and I’m like, dude, you’re delusional. You were so scared. Like,

[00:47:29] Jonathan DeYoe: I bet that helps sort of feed this idea that it’s gonna be okay. You’ve seen people go through it and you’ve seen people, right? And, and, and everyone survives and they come back and they forget the hard stuff. And I, I know that too. It’s very, it’s very interesting to hear you talk about it this way.

[00:47:40] Jonathan DeYoe: Tell people how to, connect with you. Where do they find you?

[00:47:42] Jillian Johnsrud: retireoften.com. It’s everything. I’ve got an unhinged newsletter. You can order the book. Group coaching worksheets, free worksheets, if that’s your thing. Yeah. retireoften.Com. All the things on social. I’m @JillianJohnsrud, so if you dance tango, please slide into my [00:48:00] dms. ’cause I, I wanna dance.

[00:48:03] Jonathan DeYoe: Wow. Okay. Thanks. I very much appreciate, and I wanna just for the audience, check out Jillian’s book, uh, retire Often as a guide to Building Flexible Intentional Life by integrating periods of rest and reinvention. And I will definitely get the book and read it as well. it challenges the notion that we have to work relentlessly for decades before enjoying life. And I, I probably need a little bit of a dose of that. So, Jillian, thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

[00:48:28] Jillian Johnsrud: you for having me again.

[00:48:29] Outro: Thanks for listening. Full show notes for each episode, which includes a summary, key takeaways, quotes, and any resources mentioned are available at Mindful Money. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. And if you’re enjoying the content and getting value from these episodes, please leave us a rating and review ratethispodcast.com/mindfulmoney. We’ll be sure to read those out on [00:49:00] future episodes.