Hanna Horvath — How Money Scripts Secretly Shape Your Financial Life with Hanna Horvath

[00:00:00] Hanna Horvath: I think the reason why most people can’t stop thinking about money or obsess over money is because they haven’t understood the psychological drivers behind why they’re making the money decisions that they do. A lot of people have these like unconscious beliefs or like money scripts kind of running on autopilot in the background.

[00:00:15] Hanna Horvath: Just bringing some awareness into why you have the emotions you have about money, why you’re making the money decisions that you’re making is. The first step and honestly the key to breaking that cycle, you know, you can’t change what you don’t recognize.

[00:00:34] Intro: Do you think money takes up more life space than it should? On this show, we discuss with and share stories from artists, authors, entrepreneurs, and advisors. About how they mindfully minimize the time and energy spent thinking about money. Join your host, Jonathan DeYoe, and learn how to put money in its place and get more out of life.[00:01:00]

[00:01:04] Jonathan DeYoe: Hey, welcome back on this episode of the Mindful Money Podcast. I’m chatting with Hannah Horvath. Hannah has a background as a financial journalist, has written over a thousand articles on personal finance making her, I think, an expert probably. Her approach focuses on helping people develop more intentional relationships with her finances that align with their true values rather than inherited beliefs or societal pressures.

[00:01:27] Jonathan DeYoe: This resonates deeply with the Mindful Money listeners, so I appreciate you coming on as a guest. Hannah is a CFP who specializes in decoding the psychological forces driving our financial decisions. She’s a managing editor of Bankrate, the website I referenced for decades about savings and lending rates.

[00:01:48] Jonathan DeYoe: I’ve pointed so many people to that website. I wanted to have her on the podcast because of her newsletter. Your Brain on Money. Where she explores how unconscious scripts, cognitive biases, and emotional triggers shape our relationship [00:02:00] with money. Hannah, welcome to the Mindful Money Podcast.

[00:02:02] Hanna Horvath: Thank you.

[00:02:03] Hanna Horvath: I’m happy to be here.

[00:02:04] Jonathan DeYoe: Excited to have this conversation. You list a couple episodes, so you, you sort of referenced a few people that you know out in the world, so I’m, I’m glad to, you know, add you to this list, uh, growing folks that are trying to align money thinking and our decisions together to, to sort of better living Before we get into it, where do you call home?

[00:02:22] Jonathan DeYoe: Where are you connecting from?

[00:02:23] Hanna Horvath: Yeah, I live in New York City, in Brooklyn.

[00:02:26] Jonathan DeYoe: Okay. Where’d you grow up?

[00:02:28] Hanna Horvath: I grew up in DC so I’ve pretty much always lived in cities. Obviously this is kind of the big city of America, but yeah, it’s what I know.

[00:02:36] Jonathan DeYoe: It’s what you know. Yeah. So growing up in Big city DC and now in New York, what did you learn about money and entrepreneurship as like a kid?

[00:02:43] Hanna Horvath: Yeah, so. I grew up in a very ambitious, very type A family. Uh, my educational background was in kind of a private school system, very academically rigorous system. And so I think from there I [00:03:00] internalized a lot of, I. Ideas about money, as you know, a marker for success, kind of a way to prove yourself to other people.

[00:03:09] Hanna Horvath: Like a very easy, qualitative way to kind of measure up against other people. But I think for me, that was something that I internalized very early and that was something that really, especially at the very beginning of my career, I was very hyperfocused on, um, kind of this idea of, I would call it like a wealth accumulator, just like this very compulsive saving money, making habits, you know?

[00:03:27] Hanna Horvath: Taking all these types of different freelancing gigs, you know, picking stuff up and you know, of course my background or kind of my career was rooted in personal finance, so I really did know the kind of nuts and bolts of how to manage your money, but. There was such a disconnect for me between what I knew about money and what I was actually doing with my money.

[00:03:45] Hanna Horvath: And I think a, a really key point for me was I had this number in mind of, you know, okay, when I reach this, this number in my, you know, bank account, I’m, it’s, I’m gonna feel great. I’ll, like, have made it. And I remember reaching it and I’m like sitting in my apartment, kind of looking [00:04:00] at my bank account and I’m like, oh, well, okay, now what?

[00:04:02] Hanna Horvath: You know. And I think that for me was really the turning point of. Taking a step back from personal finance and thinking of it as less of a math problem and more of a behavioral problem. Mm-hmm. A human problem. And, and that’s kind of what has led me to where I am now with, you know, writing a lot more about money, psychology and, and that kind of stuff.

[00:04:23] Jonathan DeYoe: Where were you in the career when you sort of made this aha or had this aha moment?

[00:04:27] Hanna Horvath: Yeah. The full transition has been over the past couple years, I would say about, it was about five years ago, and it was kind of twofold where I started to sort of take a step back and think more about the holistic issue of financial literacy because you know, it continues to be a big struggle for a lot of people.

[00:04:44] Hanna Horvath: I think there’s been a lot of. Brilliant minds kind of trying to solve the issue of financial literacy, and yet so many people continue to struggle. You know, we’re both in the financial advice business and you know, there’s probably never been more financial advice online, and yet people still struggle so much.

[00:04:59] Hanna Horvath: [00:05:00] So this had me thinking a lot about. There’s a disconnect, at least in my mind, between financial knowledge and financial behavior. And that’s what kind of started pushing me more into money psychology and thinking more about how behavior drives so many of our regular decisions, but specifically money decisions.

[00:05:17] Hanna Horvath: And so that’s how I kind of made that shift.

[00:05:19] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Thinking about like career track. Mm-hmm. What led to financial journalism to begin with and how did you end up at Bankrate?

[00:05:25] Hanna Horvath: Yeah, so I kind of fell into financial journalism. I was a journalism major in college. And I graduated unemployed like a lot of journalism majors do.

[00:05:35] Hanna Horvath: And I was kind of looking for a job and I was freelancing at lots of different publications. And I honestly, the most regular work I was getting from financial publications and they often paid the, they had the best rates. So I kind of just started doing that more and more, and then I was like, oh, I kind of feel like I’m falling a little bit into a niche.

[00:05:52] Hanna Horvath: And in my mind I’m like, well, I don’t know if this is what I’m interested in writing about, but. At least it’s helpful for my life. Like everybody kind of needs to know about money, at least, you know, that [00:06:00] was my thinking at the time and just over the years I got more and more engrossed in this idea of personal finance because it affects everyone I.

[00:06:10] Hanna Horvath: Every single person has to deal with it. And it’s so personal, you know, no one has the exact same personal finance situation, and I just found that so fascinating. And so the more I wrote about it, you know, I realized, okay, I wanna make sure I’m fully understanding what I’m writing about. So that’s why I got my.

[00:06:26] Hanna Horvath: Certified financial planning certification. Um, so I, I could really feel like I, I knew kind of what I was writing about and then from there I just kind of slowly progressed throughout different financial media, you know, going from freelancing to working full-time at a couple places. And that’s how I kind of ended up landing at bank rate.

[00:06:42] Jonathan DeYoe: What led to starting a newsletter?

[00:06:44] Hanna Horvath: Yeah, so I had so many things I wanted to write about specifically around like money psychology, and not just money psychology, but the kind of other piece of this. I think a lot of people look at financial literacy as an individual issue when [00:07:00] there’s a lot of structural and systemic barriers for financial wellness for a lot of people, and I felt like.

[00:07:06] Hanna Horvath: That wasn’t written enough about, and I also hadn’t really been given the opportunity to write about a lot of those topics. So I thought, well, why don’t I kind of write about it on my own? And that was kind of the, the impetus behind that. And I’ve gotten such good feedback on it. And, and there seems to be a real hunger for this of content.

[00:07:23] Hanna Horvath: I mean, people I think, are really starting to become interested in understanding, you know, why they’re making the money decisions they do, and also how they’re. External environment affects their money.

[00:07:35] Jonathan DeYoe: Hmm hmm. You, you said something earlier that I, it never really dawned on me, I’ve never actually thought about this, but you said that the financial press or the financial publishers were actually paying a higher rate than other content.

[00:07:48] Jonathan DeYoe: I wonder if that’s good. ’cause there’s, there’s so much. Crap out there in financial journalism, I guess 90% of it’s garbage. So how do people tell the difference between good [00:08:00] stuff and bad stuff?

[00:08:01] Hanna Horvath: Yeah, that’s such a good question. And, and I think, you know, it’s only gotten exacerbated with social media. You know, I, I, I think internet and, and social media has democratize a lot of this information, which is great.

[00:08:13] Hanna Horvath: But then that comes with a downside where kind of anybody can post about personal finance and a lot of these algorithms reward. Sensationalism, like, yeah,

[00:08:23] Jonathan DeYoe: I saw, um, an Instagram, what do you call it? A reel today. And a guy was, he was, he was saying, these are the only four, you know, funds or ETFs you need.

[00:08:32] Jonathan DeYoe: And all four were like American. You know, one was a broad market, one was the s and p one was the nasdaq. I’m like, this is all overlapping. Every single one of these, you own the same crap in every single one of these funds. Why would you recommend these? And it’s just so much garbage. It’s just so much, just wrongheaded thought.

[00:08:49] Jonathan DeYoe: So consistent. It drives me crazy. I mean, what do you do? What’s what? How do you advise people sift the garbage?

[00:08:55] Hanna Horvath: Yeah, so the first thing I’ll say is if anybody is telling you anything [00:09:00] definitively, like, do this, invest in this. You should not be listening to them because they don’t know you. They don’t know your situation.

[00:09:06] Hanna Horvath: They don’t know. I mean, I always joke like the only acceptable financial advice answer is it depends because most of the people writing this content don’t know you personally. That’s why you engage with a financial advisor. ’cause they will understand your full financial picture and can give you that.

[00:09:21] Hanna Horvath: Personalized advice. However, if you are online, you know, just take everything with a grain of salt. Try to have a really good understanding of your own financial needs, like what you’re looking for, and then you can kind of take information you read online and apply it to your situation in a way that makes sense for you.

[00:09:37] Hanna Horvath: I think I’m talking more exclusively about financial influencers, but I guess it also applies even to sites like Bankrate, but where are they getting their money from? I think that’s also something that. Worth exploring, especially with financial influencers, you know, who is paying them. And that typically will show you where they’re trying to kind of guide you, so to speak.

[00:09:56] Hanna Horvath: And so just, yeah, being a little bit more discerning. I mean, so much of financial [00:10:00] literacy at this point is, is media literacy for sure.

[00:10:03] Jonathan DeYoe: Wow. And we don’t, there’s no class in that, you know, whatever. It’s two weeks their own, like you, you can’t, good luck. Yeah. You know, there’s a thousand different writers, there’s a thousand different podcasts.

[00:10:13] Jonathan DeYoe: Good luck.

[00:10:14] Hanna Horvath: And what is. Even more sad, I guess, is, you know, money is so emotional. It typically is associated with a lot of negative emotions. And so when people are in a very heightened emotional state, their ability to reason or just like fully kind of look into things, it just goes down. I mean, if, if you’re feeling financially insecure, you’re in a situation where you’re, you know, desperate and someone’s.

[00:10:37] Hanna Horvath: Offering you a solution to kind of all your problems, you’re gonna be more likely to take it just because you know you’re in that position. And so I, I think a lot of times they can really prey on people’s kind of vulnerabilities there.

[00:10:49] Jonathan DeYoe: Do you, do you have like two or three favorite authors or podcasts that you listen to or write?

[00:10:53] Hanna Horvath: Yeah. The classic is Morgan Hale, who really, of course, you know, popularized the idea of, of money [00:11:00] psychology. But to be perfectly honest. I read a lot more of just generic, it’s not generic, but broader psychology books, and I think about, you know, how they can relate. I mean, so much of my ideas for content or just the way I think about money comes from.

[00:11:20] Hanna Horvath: Stuff that’s not even related to money. You know, science books, fiction books. Even just like navigating the world. I’m trying to remember the author. I just read a book. Carl Richards.

[00:11:31] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah.

[00:11:31] Hanna Horvath: Those are probably the two money books that I recommend to people. I actually candidly don’t, if somebody was asking me for financial book advice, I really wouldn’t recommend like a straightforward finance book.

[00:11:42] Hanna Horvath: I would recommend more of a psychology book, you know, because. Again, a lot of times you’ll read so much of financial advice is very prescriptive. It’s like a checklist to follow and. You could know the complete ins and outs of like compound interest or like PE ratios. And if you don’t understand your own [00:12:00] behavior, you’re not gonna build anything that’s sustainable or enjoyable.

[00:12:03] Hanna Horvath: So that, that’s kind of where I would guide people.

[00:12:06] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, I think I read this today. Jason Zweig just published his. Like list of 30 books that, uh, he would recommend. So he’s a great writer. He’s written about personal finance forever, and he’s listed like 30 different authors. So it was, it was an awesome piece today.

[00:12:20] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Anyway, I, I want to talk about money across generations. Mm-hmm. I think. My father when I was like nine or 10 years old, which is way too early to have this conversation. Talked about my life timeline. You know, Jonathan, what you’re gonna do, you’re gonna grow up, you’re gonna go to college, you’re gonna graduate, you’re gonna get married, you’re gonna have kids, you’re gonna work for 30 years, you’re gonna retire.

[00:12:40] Jonathan DeYoe: You know, this whole life timeline. I think financial planners think in this way. When we graduate, we graduate into a different environment and that matters a great deal. And I think across generations. If you graduate into a, into a successful economy versus a a, you know, a rough economy like 2007, 2008, 2009, if you graduate at that time and you start at that period, you, you end up with [00:13:00] a different sense of things and things are getting more expensive.

[00:13:03] Jonathan DeYoe: So how does our generation affect sort of the philosophy and the decisions we make?

[00:13:08] Hanna Horvath: Oh, yeah. I mean, it, it affects it. Something I write about a lot is how. You know, the community that you’re in, the time you’re living in, shapes your money behaviors, and a lot of that is, you know, the generation that you’re born into.

[00:13:22] Hanna Horvath: And so it’s exactly like you said, you know, our money psychology, kinda our behaviors or these embedded beliefs we have about money, I. Typically kind of is shaped in childhood, but is also partially shaped in these kind of big life moments, like kind of coming into adulthood, graduating from college, and yeah, totally agree that, you know, the economy at the time or kind of what was happening financially during that period of time can have a huge impact on how you.

[00:13:49] Hanna Horvath: Perceive money, how you handle money. I mean, you know, I, I was actually talking to somebody a couple weeks ago who was a later stage millennial, graduated kind of right in that timeframe that you said, and now [00:14:00] is very successful, you know, has. Millions of dollars, you know, in the bank and is so frugal because they still have that kind of ingrained fear of losing money that kind of came from working during a recession, struggling to fight work.

[00:14:16] Hanna Horvath: And so I think that causes a lot of tensions between generations. You know, I. Someone who’s in an older generation saying, oh, just do this with your money. Well, that might not apply to the, the world that a younger person is living in. And so I think you, you know, you see all these headlines of like, you know, oh, baby boomers think Gen Z is lazy.

[00:14:32] Hanna Horvath: And, um, I always laugh at those because, you know, it’s just two completely different paradigms. I mean, they’re living in essentially two completely different worlds when it comes to like how they’re, they’re thinking about and behaving with money.

[00:14:44] Jonathan DeYoe: What are some of the differences? Like I know, I know the baby boomer generation very, very well.

[00:14:48] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. How do millennials think about money that’s different?

[00:14:50] Hanna Horvath: Millennials, it’s interesting. It’s kinda the same with Gen Z, where it’s a huge cohort and I would say there’s those who really came of adulthood. I. During the [00:15:00] recession and those who are maybe so little bit younger, they kind of feel in a different cohort.

[00:15:03] Hanna Horvath: But I would say the disillusion of believing in the American dream, we see that with a lot of younger people, different types of like untraditional work structures. A lot more financial flexibility. You know, a lot of millennials have been through multiple rounds of layoffs. You know, I think they have a lot more internalized anxiety around stability.

[00:15:23] Hanna Horvath: I think too, and this is a trend that I’ve written about a lot, you know what happens when traditional milestones are delayed financially? You know, a lot of millennials are buying homes later. I. Getting married later, having children later. And what that does to how you perceive the American dream, how you, you’re using your money, so to speak.

[00:15:41] Hanna Horvath: You know, they’re also more digitally natives and that has completely shaped how they handle their money.

[00:15:48] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Wow. That’s a whole can of worms in and of itself. I mean, there was no social media when I came into the world, right when I started working or anything like that. So nothing could lead me astray.

[00:15:57] Jonathan DeYoe: And I feel like 90% of the stuff on social media leads you astray. [00:16:00] So. You know, you end up subject to all these potential pitfalls early on when you don’t know how to judge the pitfalls. And I think that’s a huge, a huge issue. You and I share sort of a deep philosophical stance, like money should occupy as little mental space as possible so we can focus on stuff that matters.

[00:16:17] Jonathan DeYoe: So how does like becoming aware of our automatic financial reactions transform the relationship with money?

[00:16:26] Hanna Horvath: Yeah, so I think the reason why most people can’t stop thinking about money or obsess over money is because they haven’t understood the psychological drivers behind why they’re making the money decisions that they do.

[00:16:37] Hanna Horvath: And I. Like I was saying before, a lot of people have these like unconscious beliefs or like money scripts kind of running on autopilot in the background, and they kind of keep you in this state of, you know, low grade vigilance essentially. Give us an

[00:16:50] Jonathan DeYoe: example of one of these, one of these money scripts.

[00:16:52] Jonathan DeYoe: What, what is a money script?

[00:16:53] Hanna Horvath: Yeah. I can give you a personal example. I think a big one for me is, you know, money equals status or money equals security [00:17:00] and. For me at least, that led me to engage in very like anxious behaviors, like, like checking my bank accounts multiple times a day. And again, it was like a self-soothing cycle where I would start to feel a little bit anxious about my financial situation.

[00:17:12] Hanna Horvath: I would check all my bank accounts to reassure myself like, okay, the money’s there, it’s not going anywhere. And that action was self-soothing, but ultimately unhelpful because. I was just spending a lot of time obsessing and thinking about something that really wasn’t changing that much hour to hour or really at all.

[00:17:28] Hanna Horvath: So this is one example, like you said, of how it can take up so much brain space and just bringing some awareness into why you have the emotions you have about money, why you’re making the money decisions that you’re making is. The first step and honestly the key to breaking that kind of cycle, you know, you can’t change what you don’t recognize.

[00:17:50] Hanna Horvath: Right? Yeah.

[00:17:51] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Awareness. That’s like mindfulness. That’s the first thing. That’s what we’re about. Yeah. Understanding the beginning. Well, so we grow up, we’re sitting at the, at [00:18:00] the knees of our parents and grandparents, and we’re learning these money lessons. What sort of unconscious beliefs do we take in when we’re learning these money Lessons from our parents and grandparents.

[00:18:08] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah.

[00:18:08] Hanna Horvath: Yeah. Um, so. Maybe not everybody had the conversation you had with your dad where they kind of lay out your entire, your entire financial No,

[00:18:16] Jonathan DeYoe: no one I’ve ever met has had that conversation.

[00:18:18] Hanna Horvath: But I think a lot of people don’t realize, you know, children pick up a lot. They pick up a lot indirectly, even unconsciously, they don’t even realize what they’re picking up.

[00:18:26] Hanna Horvath: And so. The way their parents are handling money, the way the parents talk to each other about money, what they’re spending money on, all of that is internalized. And therefore the child is kind of just told like, oh, this is what money means. And it’s not just the family. It’s also, you know, I. Your school, your classmates, the community around you, I mean, just so much.

[00:18:47] Hanna Horvath: All of that is part of that kind of forming that footprint or that imprint rather kind of in your brain of how money is, is perceived to you. And, and over time it becomes extremely entangled in our identity and our sense of self, um, how we want [00:19:00] other people to perceive us. And so. It kind of makes sense why we can’t stop thinking about money or it takes up a lot of our mental space because we make it part of our value as a person.

[00:19:10] Hanna Horvath: And so, like I was saying before, I think a lot of the things that, you know, people can be taught about money at a young age is I. That money can represent something like I was saying, status, freedom, safety. People can view it in a very negative light. Like if they lived in a household where they’re constantly being told, well, we can’t afford anything.

[00:19:27] Hanna Horvath: Mm-hmm. You know, or we can’t afford this, they could, they could potentially develop a scarcity mindset that, you know, oh, I need to make sure I’m like, hoarding my money or really keeping my money in the bank because it could be gone the next day. Or, or just kind of adopting a very, like a, like the person I was referring to earlier, a very frugal mindset.

[00:19:43] Hanna Horvath: Even when they have kind of leeway to. Be spending more, you know, those are just two couple examples.

[00:19:48] Jonathan DeYoe: It’s very cultural. Yeah. This whole idea of, of money becoming something bigger than it really should be. Yeah. Um, so in meditation you have, in order to, in order to set down some things, you have to pick up one thing, like [00:20:00] mm-hmm.

[00:20:00] Jonathan DeYoe: We, we use a focal point, usually our breath when we’re meditating and then stuff comes up and interrupts us. So I’m wondering if, in order to put down this belief that money is the answer, or that stat money equals status or money equals freedom or money equals. What is the belief we should hold about money?

[00:20:18] Jonathan DeYoe: Like what should, what is the point of money then?

[00:20:20] Hanna Horvath: I would say that money is a tool to help you live the life you wanna live. And more importantly, it’s a tool to help you express your values. And I think what happens when you say, oh, money is freedom, money is safety, it’s really, you’re trying to articulate your values.

[00:20:34] Hanna Horvath: You’re just kind of slotting money into that spot. Mm-hmm. And I think for a lot of people, they have things that are really important to them. But a lot of times they’re not really using their money in a way that kind of supports that. And so, so much I think of this entire exercise is, is getting really clear about what actually you care about and then letting money kind of help you express those values, live that life you wanna live and setting up a framework.[00:21:00]

[00:21:00] Hanna Horvath: You can kind of make that happen kind of on autopilot. And when you set that framework up for yourself, you then don’t have to kind of constantly be making decisions all day, every day, like you were saying. Kind of just like setting it aside, letting it kind of run on autopilot, making it easier for yourself.

[00:21:14] Jonathan DeYoe: So let’s say you get there. Mm-hmm. You’re at this place where it’s at the side. But you’re still like reading and you’re still engaged in media, and so how do you, how do you keep from being overwhelmed by all the messages that say, do this or try this or do this differently, or doing this wrong or Right.

[00:21:28] Jonathan DeYoe: All the financial media that just says it’s difficult to, to fight back. I might have a great plan, I might have a great idea, but then every day there’s an onslaught of you’re doing it wrong, you’re doing it wrong, you’re doing it wrong. Yeah. How do you fight back against that?

[00:21:40] Hanna Horvath: A couple things. I think the first thing is to.

[00:21:43] Hanna Horvath: Understand yourself. You know, if you understand yourself, what you care about, what’s important to you, it’s a lot easier to say, you know, that is not me. That doesn’t work for me. Mm-hmm. That doesn’t work for, you know, my life. Great example is. I value flexibility in travel. I [00:22:00] love to travel. It’s a huge, you know, part of something I enjoy spending money on.

[00:22:03] Hanna Horvath: So for me, if someone’s telling me to buy a piece of clothing, you know, a new car, I’m like, no, no, no. I, you know, I already know how I wanna be spending my money and it’s very easy for me to kind of deflect and anything that’s kind of not conflicting with how I wanna be using my money or just what I care about.

[00:22:19] Hanna Horvath: So, so I think it becomes easier when you do that. The second thing is. Create friction as much as possible, and there’s kind of two pieces of this. One is we make like tens of thousands decisions a day. We get decision fatigue. You’re gonna get tired at the end of the day. That’s why you can’t rely on willpower or discipline to kind of power through these, these types of things.

[00:22:38] Hanna Horvath: I always give the example that I will never grocery shop if I’m hungry or tired because I will just pile things into my cart. It, it’s gonna be double the cost. So just knowing that about yourself. And setting up kind of guardrails, like, okay, I know I need to grocery shop. I’m not hungry or tired right now.

[00:22:58] Hanna Horvath: I just need to do it right now. I don’t [00:23:00] wanna put it off because I don’t wanna, you know, spend extra money. And then there’s like, you know, little tricks that you can do. Like I don’t have like my credit card information saved in my computer. I have to physically like get up and go find my credit card.

[00:23:11] Hanna Horvath: It’s crazy. But even in those few seconds that it takes you to do that. It creates pause. It allows you just to have a little bit of friction so you can think to yourself like, do I really need this thing? And for big purchases too, like, you know, you can set a dollar amount, you know? Okay. Anything over $200, let’s say, I’m gonna wait 24 hours and just, I’m gonna wait and then I’ll see if I need it tomorrow.

[00:23:32] Hanna Horvath: And, and, and if you still want it tomorrow. You know, but a lot of times you’re like, Ooh, I’m so glad I didn’t buy that thing.

[00:23:39] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Yeah. Are, are there any financial tools you use? Like, I know there’s a lot of budgeting tools or tracking tools or anything like that, that you find helpful.

[00:23:47] Hanna Horvath: Yeah, I don’t, I’m so old school.

[00:23:50] Hanna Horvath: I use a spreadsheet, but, um, but that, that actually is, I. It has to do a lot with like just how I’ve had money, anxiety. It just helps me feel more in control when [00:24:00] I’m kind of managing the spreadsheet, so to speak. And I like kind of having that, that exercise of like going through my purchases, like looking at those patterns.

[00:24:07] Hanna Horvath: But I think for a lot of people, you know, they would benefit from using an app because they’re so automated. They make it so easy to like see your spending habits and that’s why I think knowledge is power. And I understand a lot of people have. You know, avoidance when it comes to wanting to check their bank accounts, but it’s so important just to understand like where your money is coming and going.

[00:24:27] Hanna Horvath: I mean, you know, I actually hadn’t been tracking my spending for a couple months once, and I went and looked and I was like, I cannot believe I’m spending this much money on, you know, takeout. This is ridiculous. And, and it, and it led to a, you know, a very intentional action. So it’s never fun, I think, to kind of have to think about this kind of stuff, but a lot of times it, it really leads to, to positive change for sure.

[00:24:49] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Yeah. There’s this, um, well, and this may be ’cause I’m in the industry, but I feel like the propensity of information out there in terms of financial press is about. Investing. Mm-hmm. And I only think it’s like [00:25:00] five to 10% of people that ever get to that place. Like I think most people would benefit, 90% of people would benefit from, from just budgeting, you know, cashflow tracking, setting goals, some very basic simple stuff.

[00:25:12] Jonathan DeYoe: Um, but do, do you get the same sense?

[00:25:14] Hanna Horvath: Yeah. I get the, I, I do get the sense that, you know, there’s so much advice where it’s like, you know, oh, save, I don’t know. A couple hundred dollars a month and they’ll get here and someone’s like, well, I’m living paycheck to paycheck. You know, there is this general frustration where it just, it feels like so much of the advice falls flat for people because it doesn’t take into account their lived experience.

[00:25:36] Hanna Horvath: And also a lot of the, the, the real societal issues that prevent a lot of people from being able to. You know, save budget, et cetera. Something that always drives me nuts too about financial advice is the whole, you know, oh, just cut out those like little purchases, cut out the coffee, you know, all this stuff.

[00:25:53] Hanna Horvath: And it’s like, you know that I live in New York, so like the lattes at this point are like six or $7, but [00:26:00] that’s six or $7 latte. Maybe you’re going to a coffee shop. You know, you have friends there, you’re friends with the owners. You’re getting that social connection. Um, you know, you’re really.

[00:26:10] Hanna Horvath: Participating in the community that, in my mind, probably has so many more benefits than, you know, something else. And, and cutting that out could actually have a, a pretty negative outsize negative impact on your life. Beyond that, you know, x amount of dollars saved each month. So that’s why I’m, I, I really advocate for.

[00:26:29] Hanna Horvath: What do you, what do you care about? What’s important to you first? And then that’s when you can really identify where you can be cutting back and budgeting. And I think, um, Ramit talks about this a lot. It’s, you know. A lot of times it’s those big decisions, the big swings where you should be looking instead of kind of these little day-to-day purchases

[00:26:48] Jonathan DeYoe: like your rent, that you can make a big difference in some places with that kind of a decision.

[00:26:52] Hanna Horvath: Yeah.

[00:26:52] Jonathan DeYoe: So we both sort of advocate, aligning, spending with values, but I wanna, there’s so much noise and we just talked about that. So what’s, what’s something that’s [00:27:00] really simple, like one thing that a listener can do like today that will bring that alignment together, bring their spending more in line with their values?

[00:27:07] Hanna Horvath: Just think, what kind of life do I wanna live? You know, if, if I had kind of unlimited funds, so to speak, what would I really be spending my money on? Or if money was really no object, and I think for a lot of people it really wouldn’t be material items. So I think once you kind of move past that point, maybe it’s spending more time with your family, maybe it’s living closer to your friends, maybe it’s traveling more.

[00:27:31] Hanna Horvath: And I think once you kind of get to that place, that’s when you can think, oh, okay, well how do I shift my spending to support that? Maybe you’re spending. A hundred dollars a month on streaming services, maybe you could be using that money to do a monthly dinner with friends or something like that. And, and just shifting things around.

[00:27:49] Hanna Horvath: And I think, again, I think the, the benefits of that vastly outweigh kind of the potential spending or, or cutbacks or anything like that.

[00:27:56] Jonathan DeYoe: It sounds like the first, the first thing to do or the, is to figure out what’s [00:28:00] important to you. It, it’s like to determine values, right?

[00:28:02] Hanna Horvath: There’s a much more succinct way than what, than what I said.

[00:28:05] Jonathan DeYoe: So that’s a to do. Then what’s the one thing that listeners are probably already doing that they should maybe stop, that would also lead to like spending values alignment?

[00:28:13] Hanna Horvath: I, I think, I think a lot of people think that there’s gonna be a number, and I think a lot of people save and, and focus on a single number.

[00:28:21] Hanna Horvath: But I think it’s better to approach things with more flexibility. You know, the goalpost is always gonna be moving. Your needs are gonna change, your life is gonna change. And so, so much of financial planning is actually building that resilience and building that adaptability because then that actually helps separate wealth.

[00:28:37] Hanna Horvath: From your identity. So then if you, you know, go through a big setback or even, you know, get a windfall, it doesn’t have this like huge impact on your sense of self that it otherwise might. Um, and so I think that’s something that I see. I’m giving two things, but lifestyle inflation, it is so hard. I understand it, but be very aware of how, you know.[00:29:00]

[00:29:00] Hanna Horvath: Your spending habits change with your income because I think it’s something that so many people fall into and unfortunately, you know, when we spend more, we get used to that and then that becomes our new normal and it becomes even harder to cut back. Those are probably the two big things.

[00:29:15] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Creep happens.

[00:29:16] Jonathan DeYoe: There’s no way to avoid it. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta pay real close attention happens to me all the time. So just for you wrap up, what was the last thing you changed your mind about?

[00:29:24] Hanna Horvath: This kind of goes back to, you know, the idea of a number. For most, for the very beginning of my career, I was just kind of saving money, like I said, and I told myself, you know, oh, I’m saving up to buy a house.

[00:29:33] Hanna Horvath: Um, because I think I really convinced myself it’s what everybody else is doing. It’s like, what, what to do? It means you’re financially stable. That’s kind of like the step, and actually within the past couple months, I’ve kind of changed my mind on the idea of buying a house. I’m never say never, but I think for least a foreseeable future, that’s just probably something that I’m not gonna do with my money.

[00:29:52] Hanna Horvath: Part of the reason is just having more flexibility that comes with renting. Also, I live in New York, it’s an expensive market and there’s a lot of costs that come [00:30:00] with owning an apartment or a home in New York. So, you know, to me it didn’t feel like the best financial decision for myself. And also I just didn’t line up with the way I wanted to live my life.

[00:30:09] Hanna Horvath: You know, I travel a lot, you know, I, I go to see my parents a lot. I just wanted that extra flexibility ’cause that was really important to me. So it was something I had to kind of release myself from because, you know, for a long time I was telling myself, oh, this is what I’m saving for. I. And when I kind of decided not to, to really go through with it, I was like, oh, well, well what do I do now?

[00:30:27] Hanna Horvath: What, what, what am I, what am I really doing with my money now? And I kind of had to release myself a little bit from, from this idea that, you know, I had to be kind of going towards this one goal, which is kind of, instead think of money. Like, oh, I have this. Foundation to build on. I have this protection where I, where I can make decisions and I have that flexibility, I have that freedom.

[00:30:46] Hanna Horvath: So I kinda had to do a little bit of rewiring there.

[00:30:49] Jonathan DeYoe: Actually, it’s very interesting ’cause in the last probably six, eight months, I’ve heard many, many, many more financial professionals say something very similar.

[00:30:57] Hanna Horvath: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:58] Jonathan DeYoe: Maybe it’s because the house houses are so [00:31:00] expensive. Maybe it’s because. You know, earnings haven’t kept up.

[00:31:02] Jonathan DeYoe: Whatever the reason is is why, why buy? Like so many people are saying, buying’s not worth, it’s too expensive. It caught, you know, you got taxes, you got insurance, you got maintenance, you got all this stuff that comes with it. Why just, why not just rent? ’cause rents have been held kind of back relative to the cost of buying.

[00:31:16] Hanna Horvath: Yeah. And, and I think too, I think a lot of it, and you know, it’s a huge purchase, it’s a very emotional decision, I think for a lot of people because they envision like their lives in these kind of places. And I think a lot of people are also kind of fed into this idea that like I. Oh, it’s this like investment.

[00:31:32] Hanna Horvath: You’re gonna make all this money from it. And, and that’s not to say you can’t make money ’cause you absolutely can make money, you know, owning a home and selling a home. But I don’t necessarily think that is, should be the end goal for most people buying a home with like the expectation that you’re gonna make all this money doing it.

[00:31:46] Hanna Horvath: And I think there are a lot of unforeseen costs that a lot of people don’t, don’t realize until they kind of, you know, go through the process. So. For me. Absolutely. It just, it just did not make sense.

[00:31:55] Jonathan DeYoe: Yep. And going back to your prior comment that you gotta know your values [00:32:00] first, and if your values are travel and flexibility, that doesn’t make sense.

[00:32:03] Jonathan DeYoe: Like those two things don’t go along.

[00:32:05] Hanna Horvath: Yeah. And, and for me to a huge value is just, you know, my relationship’s been close to family. So, you know, as my parents have gotten older, they’ve moved from DC to South Carolina, you know, I wanna make sure that I am able to go spend time like a couple months with them if I need to.

[00:32:18] Hanna Horvath: And. I think, you know, if I, if I owned a home, I would feel more, you know, pressure to kind of stay put, so to speak.

[00:32:26] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Is there anything people don’t know about you, or maybe you’ve told them, but the something that you really want them to know?

[00:32:32] Hanna Horvath: I don’t know if it’s what people dunno about me, but I always say, you know, I am figuring this out in the same way that everybody else is figuring this out with money.

[00:32:39] Hanna Horvath: I, there’s no one solution and what’s, what’s worked for me is not gonna work for somebody else. And that’s why I really advocate, you know. Just be aware of yourself and your own behaviors and, and take, you know, any advice I’m giving, take it with a grain of salt like you would kind of with any other voice and make sure it’s applying to you and your situation.

[00:32:56] Hanna Horvath: So, yeah, that, that, that’s what I would say.

[00:32:58] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. And tell people how [00:33:00] they, how they connect with you. Where do they find your newsletter?

[00:33:02] Hanna Horvath: Yes, so I’ve, yeah, my newsletter, your Brain on Money. You can find it on Substack. I post pretty regularly on social media. It’s the same username, your brain on money. You can find me on kind of all social platforms there.

[00:33:15] Jonathan DeYoe: Are you writing the book, your Brain on Money?

[00:33:17] Hanna Horvath: Maybe one day. I don’t wanna rule it out, but I think between the newsletter and the full-time job. But, uh, hopefully one day in the future.

[00:33:24] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Yeah. Well, good luck and thanks so much for coming on the Mindful Money Podcast.

[00:33:27] Hanna Horvath: Thank you. It was my pleasure. Yeah.

[00:33:33] Intro: Thanks for listening. Full show notes for each episode, which includes a summary, key takeaways, quotes, and any resources mentioned are available at mindful.money. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. And if you’re enjoying the content and getting value from these episodes, please leave us a rating and review at ratethispodcast.com/mindfulmoney. We’ll be sure to read those out on future [00:34:00] episodes.