Elizabeth Husserl — The Power of Enough: Redefining What It Means to Be Wealthy with Elizabeth Husserl

[00:00:00] Elizabeth Husserl: Financial stability is one area of wealth that is really important. I tell all of my clients, it doesn’t matter when we arrive at having a clear financial plan, my work is only half done. If that is now in relationship to all these other areas of wealth, which include participation, belonging, connection, understanding. If we don’t bring our awareness to understanding how am I satisfying these human needs? How am I doing them with strategies that perhaps use money, but more importantly, how am I doing it with strategies that do not require money? That is what starts to break our dependency on money for being the main resource. And when we start to break that dependency, it’s like, oh my gosh, the world is my oyster. I feel financial agency, wealth agency. I feel empowered. And so it just turns everything on its head.

[00:00:51] Intro: Do you think money takes up more life space than it should? On this show, we [00:01:00] discuss with and share stories from artists, authors, entrepreneurs, and advisors about how they mindfully minimize the time and energies. Spent thinking about money. Join your host, Jonathan DeYoe, and learn how to put money in its place and get more out of life.

[00:01:24] Jonathan DeYoe: Welcome back on this episode of The Mindful Money Podcast.

[00:01:27] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m chatting with Elizabeth Husserl. Elizabeth Husserl’s a financial advisor and the co-founder of Peak360 Wealth Management. She holds a BS in economics from Tulane University and an MA in East West Psychology from the California Institute of Integral Studies, where my favorite professor also taught. She’s also taught as an adjunct professor herself.

[00:01:48] Jonathan DeYoe: So her experience spans nonprofit work throughout the Americas. She’s a sought after speaker who’s led workshops at major tech companies. She lives in the San Francisco Bay Area, just like me, and I wanted to have her on the [00:02:00] show to talk about the new book, The Power of Enough: Finding Joy in Your Relationship with Money.

[00:02:05] Jonathan DeYoe: Elizabeth, welcome to the Mindful Money Podcast.

[00:02:08] Elizabeth Husserl: Jonathan, thanks for having me. This is actually one of the interviews I was most excited about.

[00:02:13] Jonathan DeYoe: Aw, thank you so much. That’s just because we knew each other, not because of any kind of skill set of

[00:02:17] Elizabeth Husserl: No, no, It’s because of your work in the world as well. I mean, there’s nothing like talking about this with people who actually have taken the journey themselves. So I’ve been, tracking you for years.

[00:02:26] Elizabeth Husserl: I’m excited to be

[00:02:27] Elizabeth Husserl: here.

[00:02:27] Jonathan DeYoe: Thank you. Thank you. very much. , so did you happen

[00:02:30] Jonathan DeYoe: to know Dr. Steven Goodman at the

[00:02:32] Elizabeth Husserl: Oh yes. I was about to ask him like, who is your favorite professor? Steven Goodman was amazing. We would always, when we were students, we’d go see the Steven Goodman show

[00:02:40] Jonathan DeYoe: Have you read this

[00:02:41] Jonathan DeYoe: or seen this?

[00:02:42] Elizabeth Husserl: Yep. The Buddhist psychology of awakening.

[00:02:45] Jonathan DeYoe: That’s Steven Goodman’s that is in-depth guide to Abby Dharma that is, uh,

[00:02:49] Jonathan DeYoe: not for the faint of heart.

[00:02:51] Elizabeth Husserl: Yeah. No, it’s not for the faint of heart.

[00:02:53] Elizabeth Husserl: I mean, his classes weren’t for the faint of heart, but he just . Taught with such passion that you just like, , , it was contagious in his teaching, so [00:03:00] I’m so glad that was your favorite professor.

[00:03:01] Elizabeth Husserl: There’s some

[00:03:02] Elizabeth Husserl: good people there, but he was one of the greats.

[00:03:04] Jonathan DeYoe: Yep. He was great. I met him at the Institute of Buddhist Studies and he was a Tibetan teacher and, you know, intro to meditation, and he introduced me to

[00:03:10] Jonathan DeYoe: my first actual llama teacher.

[00:03:12] Elizabeth Husserl: Oh,

[00:03:12] Jonathan DeYoe: I became my teacher who set me down for, you know, Jonathan, you need to take 10,000 Bs.

[00:03:18] Elizabeth Husserl: Hmm.

[00:03:19] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m still like 8,000 in like, I’m just.

[00:03:23] Elizabeth Husserl: There we go. Let’s take a bow. Let’s add one more.

[00:03:26] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah,

[00:03:27] Jonathan DeYoe: , a lot at the beginning, what you’re supposed to do as a meditation student. It’s, it’s a lot. So, , you’re

[00:03:32] Jonathan DeYoe: connecting from San Francisco right now?

[00:03:35] Elizabeth Husserl: I’m in Oakland.

[00:03:35] Jonathan DeYoe: Oakland. Okay, me too. Me too. Oakland Hills.

[00:03:38] Jonathan DeYoe: Beautiful. Where’d you grow up?

[00:03:40] Elizabeth Husserl: I grew up?

[00:03:40] Elizabeth Husserl: in New Orleans, so down in the south my parents immigrated to New Orleans from Columbia, from South America. My dad came over, , to do his residency as a physician and then got a job at the local HMO Ochsner and have been there, they’ve been there for 52 years. My mom also did her career as a [00:04:00] therapist, so we built deep roots and deep community in New Orleans.

[00:04:03] Elizabeth Husserl: , still go back. They’re still there.

[00:04:04] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. That’s beautiful.

[00:04:06] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m curious, what did you learn about money and entrepreneurship

[00:04:08] Jonathan DeYoe: in New Orleans growing up?

[00:04:10] Elizabeth Husserl: That’s a great question. What did I learn about money versus, so I would say I did not learn a lot about entrepreneurship, which was part of what kind of, you know, thrusted me into learning about my own relationship to money. ’cause like why is this so hard? I was like, oh. Because I decided to do something that hadn’t been taught to me. Right? So I decided to learn how to be an entrepreneur, but I think in. In New Orleans. It’s interesting, , new Orleans is such a unique town and it has its own expression of wealth that is beyond financial. Right? And that, that’s a big thing of what I talk about in the book is that money and wealth are not the same thing.

[00:04:43] Elizabeth Husserl: I know, you know that. Right. And so New Orleans is the embodiment of that because it has such deep levels of vitality and connection and people participate in all different ways. And you show up and celebrate that the crawfish crossed the road, right? Or at Strawberry Fest, it’s like they celebrate everything.

[00:04:59] Elizabeth Husserl: And so [00:05:00] it was a unique expression of life that, funny enough, resembled what I was used to in South America, where my family was from or is from, and. It was used to what I got to experience when I lived in Oaxaca. So it’s just kind of like, it’s its own country within this country, new Orleans, and it taught me that wealth is a lot more, , it’s a lot more holistic and a lot more broad than what we are used to.

[00:05:24] Elizabeth Husserl: Defining it as.

[00:05:26] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, I think we’ll get into that before we do so. What led you to writing the

[00:05:32] Jonathan DeYoe: book like it’s an undertaking.

[00:05:33] Elizabeth Husserl: I think that the honest answer, Jonathan, is that I felt like I had a contribution in my field. I wanted to be a thought leader. , I have loved the intersection of economics and finance, and psychology and spirituality since I was 20 years old. And I think.

[00:05:49] Elizabeth Husserl: We are on a similar path there, right? It’s like, I love numbers and math and solving problems and spreadsheets. There’s something really satisfying about that, right? And I equally love [00:06:00] being with the depth of the human experience, right? I can, I’m not afraid to go into those emotional and spiritual depths.

[00:06:06] Elizabeth Husserl: I’m equally intrigued by it. But I’ve always had a foot in both worlds, right? And so as I’ve been working with people around their relationship to money and financial advising. I’ve found a career that lets me live in both worlds. And I think what was lacking, which I know is, you know, I need to ask you the same question at some point.

[00:06:24] Elizabeth Husserl: What inspired you to write your book is that in our financial industry, the diversity of voices at times have been lacking in terms of our relationship to money and our relationship to wealth. And I just had this burning passion is that I have something to add. Not only as a different perspective as a financial advisor, but you know, as a female practitioner, as a Latina, like there’s a different worldview that has a lot to offer.

[00:06:49] Elizabeth Husserl: And so I was just determined to write. And then I think the last thing I’ll say is that I lost a very close friend at the start of the pandemic. She was 49 years old and died from blood [00:07:00] cancer. And it was a, it was a wake up moment where I’m like, I don’t know how long I have. Right? That was a very unexpected turn of events for her. I’ve been talking about this book for years, and that was the fire under the butt. It’s like, if I only have a couple more years to live, knock on wood, which is not my case, I, I want to leave this as my legacy. I committed to one human baby and one book baby. My job is done. Right? Like, that was my contribution to the world. ,

[00:07:28] Jonathan DeYoe: I don’t know the human baby, but I, I do know

[00:07:31] Jonathan DeYoe: the should write another book. There should be another one behind it. Not a sequel, but more. ’cause you’re right.

[00:07:36] Jonathan DeYoe: in the book, the Power of Enough Finding Joy in your relationship with Money, there’s sort of three things I want to talk about.

[00:07:43] Jonathan DeYoe: I wanna talk about, , defining or redefining wealth. , I totally agree. We get it wrong. Basically, I want talk about the satiation paradigm versus scarcity, which abundant, if you’re on social media, it’s all about abundance, scarcity, and mindset. Mindset, mindset.

[00:07:58] Jonathan DeYoe: , and I wanna talk about this idea of embodying [00:08:00] wealth.

[00:08:00] Jonathan DeYoe: . To start set up the problem, like what do we get wrong individually,

[00:08:04] Jonathan DeYoe: culturally, about how we define money?

[00:08:06] Elizabeth Husserl: Yeah, so think the initial problem, Jonathan, is that we think money and wealth are the same thing and they’re not, right? And so that’s the core issue. Money is a tool in a technology, and it has very specific functions. Wealth is a state of wellbeing, right? So the other way to think about it is that it’s almost like saying that relationships and love are the same thing.

[00:08:27] Elizabeth Husserl: No, love is an essential state, right? Relationship is one tool to experience love. And so think of it that way. Wealth is a state of wellbeing An essential state that I believe is a human right that we all have access to. And money is one tool, one resource, one. Element that can help us experience particular flavors of wealth, right?

[00:08:49] Elizabeth Husserl: But wealth is so much more broad. And so what happens is that when we confuse the two, one, we start to misuse money, right? We start to give money. Too much power, [00:09:00] it becomes the scapegoat. Of, wait a second. I need more and more and more of you to feel satisfaction in my life. So we misuse money and we don’t take responsibility for it.

[00:09:08] Elizabeth Husserl: Right? Which is a big piece of what I talk about in my book is that when we start to have a clear and a healthier relationship with money, we actually start to take responsibility for the ways that we give our power away, that we scapegoat money. So that’s a big thing, is that we misuse it. But the other thing is that we then rob ourselves of the ability to experience wealth.

[00:09:30] Elizabeth Husserl: Without adding one more dollar to your bank account. Right. And that’s a different level of poverty where it’s like, wait a second, maybe I’m still figuring out my slice of the pie for financial stability. And we’ll talk about what I mean by these slices of pie when we talk about the wealth mandala. But what it means is that financial stability is one area of wealth that is really important.

[00:09:51] Elizabeth Husserl: Both you and I. Have had careers. Right. I’m still in the financial advising. . It’s, what I do for a living. It’s really important, but I tell all of my clients, it [00:10:00] doesn’t matter when we arrive at having a clear financial plan, my work is only half done. If that is now in relationship to all these other areas of wealth, which include participation, belonging, connection, understanding, safety, leisure, touch, all these other areas that are based on the signs of human needs. If we don’t bring our

[00:10:23] Elizabeth Husserl: awareness to understanding how am I satisfying these human needs? One, how am I doing them with strategies that perhaps use money Two, but more importantly, how am I doing it with strategies that do not require money? T Right. That is what starts to break our dependency on money for being the main resource. And when we start to break that dependency, it’s like, oh my gosh, the world is my oyster. I feel financial agency, wealth agency. I feel empowered. I feel excited ’cause I get to design my life. And so it just turns everything on its head.

[00:10:57] Jonathan DeYoe: So how did we get here?

[00:10:58] Jonathan DeYoe: how did we now [00:11:00] turn money

[00:11:00] Jonathan DeYoe: into like everybody’s God? Like how did

[00:11:02] Elizabeth Husserl: Ex. Yeah, no, that’s a great question. And I, you know, racked my brain in research, in getting there. And so what I discovered in my journey, Jonathan, was that, so go back in time to kind of, , more indigenous communities or more localized communities where you had closer, intimate relationships with people who satisfied your, material needs, right?

[00:11:21] Elizabeth Husserl: And so you knew the baker, you knew the teacher. You knew the banker, you knew whatever. You had more intimate relationships. So when you had that level of intimacy. Money was more clear in its role and its function because your relationship is what created bonds of intimacy. And that’s really important. I knew Jonathan, who you were and how you showed up in the community. Right? Did you lean in? Were you showing up, and doing your role? Were you productive? Were you somewhat of integrity, et cetera? I knew you through our relationship. In our more modern culture, we don’t have those same. Intimate bonds with each other, right?

[00:11:59] Elizabeth Husserl: We don’t [00:12:00] know. You walk into a grocery store, , maybe you say hello to the teller, but they’re someone different the next day. We don’t have that. And so what’s end up happening is that money, instead of just being a tool, has also become a technology for how we trust each other. Right? So it’s like trustworthiness has been replaced by credit worthiness.

[00:12:18] Elizabeth Husserl: And so that’s where it starts to feel irky and murky because we’re like, wait a second, my sense of self-worth. Is connected to net worth, right? How much money do I have makes is an expression of my success, of my trustworthiness. And we start to feel like That doesn’t quite align with how I wanna define myself.

[00:12:36] Elizabeth Husserl: So that’s kind of how we got into this mess where money has an undue power and place in our society because we gave it, right? And I think that’s the really important piece is that we can learn how to undo that.

[00:12:48] Jonathan DeYoe: so you’re talking like a hundred year arc or? 500 year arc. Right., and then I think we cap it off with 25 years ago, social media and then , four years ago now I lose crack, you know, COVID where [00:13:00] we, no one could go out and talk to anybody. And I came outta Covid, like not leaving the house like I was, I.

[00:13:05] Jonathan DeYoe: I didn’t become a shut in, but it was, it was harder for me to get outta the house after Covid. , , so physically distanced and then this technology , lets us talk like this, like we’re talking now. We don’t have to talk face to face. We can do this. And we did this more and more and more and more.

[00:13:18] Jonathan DeYoe: So large arc, well by technology and then some massive disruption. And now we’re here. , what do we do?, what is the process of

[00:13:27] Jonathan DeYoe: recapturing the, the real value?

[00:13:29] Elizabeth Husserl: Yeah, I mean, I think you’re speaking to you in different terms, like we’re going through a loneliness epidemic, right? We are feeling potentially more wealthy on paper, but lonelier internally. And so let’s go back to that second question that you were talking about, like the abundance scarcity loop in relationship to a bigger paradigm. Because what happens, right, is that. , scarcity brain is real. We are wired to seek, right? And that’s kind of how we’ve kept alive, right? Your, your ancestors, Jonathan figured it out. My ancestors figured it out. We’re having this conversation today ’cause our [00:14:00] ancestors survived, right? And so, scarcity brain, it has an important role.

[00:14:03] Elizabeth Husserl: But what happens is that it keeps us in the loop where I’m trying to push scarcity away by grabbing onto abundance, right? And what ends up happening is that I’m grabbing onto, , social media or money, or. Other ways to give me , quick hits of dopamine to feel momentarily fulfilled, but it doesn’t quite fill this kind of endless hunger that we have for something different, which is, you know, the Hungry Ghost symptom that they would talk about in Buddhism.

[00:14:29] Elizabeth Husserl: Right? And so it’s like, it’s like we’re eating and we’re consuming a lot, but we’re not consuming the quality of things that actually makes us feel satisfied. So that’s kind of the loop that we’re stuck in. Right? ,

[00:14:41] Elizabeth Husserl: and so part of what I talk about in this book is that if we just kind of hold the abundance scarcity mindset as one of the ways that we do make decisions to kind of satisfy our financial strategies, but that’s one slice of the pie, and we recognize that wealth is rooted in a bigger paradigm , a state of wellbeing, right?

[00:14:59] Elizabeth Husserl: Where [00:15:00] it’s connected to, meaning we can start to see, okay, what are the different strategies that I’m using in my life to satisfy my need? For touch, curiosity, leisure, belonging, right? I break it into a one page pie, a wealth mandala, and I use that word intentionally. Mandala means circle in Sanskrit, and it is a tool to move from suffering to joy, right?

[00:15:25] Elizabeth Husserl: It’s like when you start to bring that awareness to these different areas of your life, and the reality is that you may do that exercise, Jonathan being like, whoa, I actually. Have a two in belonging, right? Or a two in connection. ’cause so much of my life is virtual. Right? How can you be with that in Nonjudgment?

[00:15:42] Elizabeth Husserl: Be like, okay, what can I potentially start to shift in small degrees? I’m sure it wasn’t easy to decide. Okay. Pandemic is. Mainly over, right? We could argue that Covid is here to stay for a long time, but the same, but we know a lot more today that allows us to engage with people still [00:16:00] real time in a healthier way.

[00:16:01] Elizabeth Husserl: So what are the strategies that work for you, Jonathan, that are different, that maybe work for me that allows you to find. Fulfillment in these different areas. Right. And I think that’s the important piece in terms of starting to embody wealth instead of just accumulating it, is that the way we work with the scarcity brain, , is understanding that there’s different levels of intelligence in us.

[00:16:24] Elizabeth Husserl: So for example, I lean on the body center. That’s what I talk about when I talk about satiation. Satiation is the visceral experience of being fulfilled. So the body center,

[00:16:36] Elizabeth Husserl: as it starts to learn what satiates it can actually help the mind relax in its scarcity. So do you notice that difference? I’m leaning into the wisdom of the body that actually tells us when we’re full.

[00:16:50] Elizabeth Husserl: The easiest example, Jonathan, remember the last time you’ve had a nourishing meal where you’re just like, oh, that hit the spot. You know? We know what that feels [00:17:00] like. We also know what it feels like when we eat. You know, a meal on the run, empty calories. You’re like, whoa, did I have lunch today? You know what I mean?

[00:17:08] Elizabeth Husserl: And you, you’re like, I don’t know. I’m gonna eat a little extra just in case. Right? We gain weight that way. Do you see that?

[00:17:13] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, you’re, you’re talking about full though, not just in food. You’re talking about full in

[00:17:17] Jonathan DeYoe: relational and touch

[00:17:18] Elizabeth Husserl: Exactly right. But I wanted to give the experience, ’cause we know what a nourishing meal is, and that’s an easy, visceral way of like, oh yeah, and your nourishing meal may not be the same as my nourishing meal. Right. And so what’s really important is that when we talk about the wealth mandala based on the science of human needs, and we look at wealth in a myriad of 12 different needs, what’s interesting is that human needs are universal, but the way we satisfy them is unique and personal. So this is when it starts to get really fun, and this is where we bring agency to designing a wealth portfolio, right? Where in my financial stability, yes, maybe I use investment strategies, tax strategies, estate planning strategies, everything that we talk about in [00:18:00] finance, they have a role to play in the financial stability. But you can’t throw more money at belonging if you’re not letting yourself. Feel

[00:18:08] Elizabeth Husserl: like you’re belonging. You can walk into a room wearing designer clothes and feel totally out of place. and so you have to start to work with like, okay, what does belonging feel like to me?

[00:18:18] Elizabeth Husserl: Right? Where are those spaces where I can be myself and not wear a mask? Right? Who are those people that actually love me for who I am? Am I. Am spending time with them or am I spending my time here with people who don’t? And how do you start to shift your strategies and notice so many of them do not require the use of money?

[00:18:37]

[00:18:37] Jonathan DeYoe: so one of the goals of the Mindful Money podcast is sort of normalize the conversation about money.

[00:18:41] Jonathan DeYoe: you think the sense of money is secret? Money is something we don’t talk about. Nobody knows what anyone earns. It’s all very quiet.

[00:18:46] Jonathan DeYoe: . Do you think that the fact that it’s all a secret actually creates more problems for us when we’re actually trying to

[00:18:51] Jonathan DeYoe: put it in the context of life?

[00:18:53] Elizabeth Husserl: What I would say, the fact that wealth is talked about numerically is what makes it a problem, right? And that’s where it’s a secret. So [00:19:00] think of if we talk about wealth only in numbers, we go right into the comparative mode. Do you make more than me, Jonathan? Do you owe more? That’s better, right? And so it’s the number conversation that it’s same thing with social media.

[00:19:12] Elizabeth Husserl: How many followers do you have? How many likes did you get? When we add the numbers in, even though I love numbers, right? I work numbers all day. We just naturally go into comparison and analysis when we start to talk about wealth in a non-monetary way, and that’s where I wrote the book without any mathematical inclusion I wrote.

[00:19:30] Elizabeth Husserl: It’s peppered with questions on wealth and your relationship to money so that we can talk about our stories. Let’s talk about our financial DNA. What shaped you, Jonathan? What shaped me? Oftentimes we find that there’s a lot more commonality in our stories than we give credit for. And we’re like, oh yeah, I know that. I know how hard it was to start a business, right? And be an entrepreneur, especially when it wasn’t taught. And that’s where we start to talk more about money, talk more about wealth.

[00:19:56] Jonathan DeYoe: just sort of led right into the next thing I was gonna ask you. , , you talk about having a [00:20:00] conversation with money. Tell us about , the structure of that conversation.

[00:20:03] Elizabeth Husserl: Oh my gosh. So this is the thing that I most loved from CIIS was learning this practice, right? , you know, ’cause I went through my degree in transpersonal psychology, which is pretty abstract, right? Imagine like two years with Stephen Goodman , you learn amazing things. But then how do I apply that to a private practice, right?

[00:20:18] Elizabeth Husserl: It’s like, so I went to this one course with Dr. Klein. And he was gonna teach us how to set up a private practice after going through your psychology degree. , ’cause that’s what I did before going to financial advising. So he introduced the conversation with money technique as a gestalt chair exercise.

[00:20:33] Elizabeth Husserl: So it’s a therapeutic chair exercise, they call it the empty chair exercise. And the way it works is that you first. Choose a money object, right? So this is my, I’ve had this money object for 20 years. It’s a jar, $20 bills and foreign currency from places that I’ve gone, right? So you choose a money object, it can be cash, your wallet, credit card, et cetera. You literally put it in a chair in front of you. And this is fun, Jonathan. ’cause you get to decide how close you want the [00:21:00] chair. Are you feeling really anxiously attached? How distant you want the chair? ’cause you’re like, I can’t stand to be in the same room with you. Money. Decide on the, on the, on the distance.

[00:21:08] Elizabeth Husserl: Place money in the chair. Set a timer on your phone for five minutes. You get to go first and you get to say anything that you’re holding emotionally around money. Like, don’t tell money your story. ’cause you, that’s a different exercise and it knows your story, but you could say like, God damnit money, where have you been?

[00:21:25] Elizabeth Husserl: Or like, why is it set so hard? Or why do you come in and out? , so erratically or. Oh my god, it’s so good to see you. Money. Right? I want more of you like what is that first almost caricature thing that you just need to get off your chest? And I’ve seen it all. I’ve seen people just like start cursing at money.

[00:21:41] Elizabeth Husserl: People go quiet. ’cause like I don’t even know what to say. Money, right? So just be in that five minutes, even if you have nothing to say. When the timer goes off, literally get up, you sit in the other chair and you hold money in your lap and you are, money gets five minutes and money gets to respond to you. [00:22:00] Right. And I tell people, do not edit. Just say whatever comes outta your mouth. And once you start, just let it riff and see what wants to be said from money’s perspective. Timer goes off, you get two minutes and then money gets the last word. Right? And then when you do this conversation, Jonathan, you can so quickly get to the core of what’s the emotional interaction that you have with money. ’cause the reality is that’s how you’re meeting money every. So it’s one of the best techniques that I

[00:22:32] Elizabeth Husserl: use with clients. I use it with myself all the time. Happy to share some of those examples. , but it just gets to the core of what is at the relationship with money.

[00:22:41] Jonathan DeYoe: , so you worked with clients through this process, you had this conversation. What kind of changes do you see

[00:22:44] Jonathan DeYoe: in people after they have this conversation?

[00:22:46] Elizabeth Husserl: Oh my gosh. I would say the biggest one, Jonathan, is that people take responsibility in a way that I’ve never seen before. ? I’m moderating this conversation with money. And one they’ll recognize, oh, I’m actually angry at someone. I’m angry at my father [00:23:00] who withheld money or was never there and threw money at a problem, and actually what I really wanted them is their love or to come to my soccer games, or they take responsibility of like, oh, money. I’m blaming you for not coming into my life. But guess what? I’ve actually never really known how to charge my fees.

[00:23:15] Elizabeth Husserl: Or I say yes to everyone that I’m so busy, right? Like you start to see what patterns you are doing in your life that actually is recreating the problem. So I would say that’s the biggest thing is that the responsibility piece. I think the second piece is that people are like, whoa, I didn’t realize that emotion was there.

[00:23:32] Elizabeth Husserl: I didn’t realize how angry I was. Right? And so again, we are literally

[00:23:36] Elizabeth Husserl: whipping out our wallets all day long, making transactions. And if the core is anger, you’re in relationship with anger a lot. Right. And I think that’s a really important piece too. So the, getting clear on what the core. One, taking responsibility.

[00:23:50] Elizabeth Husserl: And then three, when I do this conversation with clients, you know, every discovery meeting. I don’t maybe do the full 10 minute, but I will always ask each of them if I’m working with a couple to each of [00:24:00] them. What’s the first thing you would say to money if you were to walk in the room? What would money say?

[00:24:03] Elizabeth Husserl: Back nine outta 10 times. They tell me something entirely different and they’re like, oh, I didn’t know that. Oh, I didn’t know that. And so when I’m working with couples, it helps also just clear the air of like, you all have different relationships to money.

[00:24:16] Jonathan DeYoe: Of course, and they just don’t know it. ’cause they’ve never had anyone ask the question. Right.

[00:24:19] Elizabeth Husserl: Exactly.

[00:24:21] Jonathan DeYoe: , I want you to go into this, concept of the wealth model I, we talked about just a second ago, 12 items. How does it work? I, I’m imagining that people actually design their own and they score each of the sections separately.

[00:24:32] Jonathan DeYoe: But tell us the story.

[00:24:34] Elizabeth Husserl: Yeah, , and I’ll say Jonathan, is that this is, it’s a, free resource available on my website, right? Because you can obviously read through it in my book. But

[00:24:41] Elizabeth Husserl: you can go after listening to this and download it, print it out, and do it yourself. It’s a fun one to do with your family, and I’ll share more about that.

[00:24:48] Elizabeth Husserl: So basically this wealth mandala, , mandala meaning circle, and Sanskrit was based on the science of human needs from both Maslow that we all know. You know, introduced the idea of self-actualization in [00:25:00] relationship to kind of some core survival needs. And then this economist man from Max Neef, who I had the privilege of studying with, and he brought this idea of satisfiers to needs, right?

[00:25:09] Elizabeth Husserl: So again, human needs are universal. The way we satisfy them are EU unique and personal. Funny enough, he was from Chile, and I think the underlying current was he wanted to help. Chilean policymakers create strategies, economic strategies that were different from the United States, right? Because they’re like, we can decide our own economic agency, right?

[00:25:30] Elizabeth Husserl: And so I think there’s a core piece there of how do we individuate from what is the potential more status quo. And so what I did is that, , you know, , man from was definitely a little more technical and he created a matrix.

[00:25:42] Elizabeth Husserl: I’m like, no, let’s make something pretty and easier to work with. So it’s a circle that’s divided into 12 sections. So the 12 human needs are financial stability, safety. Physical health, freedom, purpose, understanding, participation, belonging, connection, [00:26:00] curiosity, leisure touch. And I did leave two spaces, Jonathan, for people who are like, you know what?

[00:26:05] Elizabeth Husserl: You didn’t say any need. That’s really important to me. Transcendence, service, creativity, add your own. Right? Because, you know, I do think that there’s some space here for, for creativity. And then what you do is that on a scale of one to 10, you collar out, almost like if it were a pedal, how fulfilled you are in each need.

[00:26:23] Elizabeth Husserl: So, for example, if you feel really fulfilled in the need for touch, I, I actually love touch. I ask for hugs a lot. I’ll hug my daughter a lot. So I feel pretty, fulfilled there. I like to go for massages. I would fill it out on a scale of one to 10, eight in kind of the, the flower petal is pretty full.

[00:26:39] Elizabeth Husserl: So you go around and you just assess how fulfilled you are, right? And then you put it on the wall, Jonathan, and it becomes this beautiful flower. And I say that on purpose because of flower is not perfect in its petals, right? Some pedals are a little more welted, some are a little more filled out.

[00:26:54] Elizabeth Husserl: And so if you look at your wealth mandala. Just take it in for what it is. You’ll start to recognize, huh? [00:27:00] There’s some areas in my life that I actually know how to satisfy myself in. Great. What am I doing there?

[00:27:07] Elizabeth Husserl: Right. Start to bring some inquiry, what’s working there, right. And then there’s some areas in my life that potentially feel at lack right now, in some cases, poverty.

[00:27:15] Elizabeth Husserl: Right? This, again, we’re diversifying what poverty is and feels like. And then the question is, do I want to bring more resources and attention? Yes or no? And usually when I’m working with people, I’ll say, okay, this year let’s choose two. Right? It could be one that’s already fulfilled that we wanna amplify.

[00:27:31] Elizabeth Husserl: It could be one that’s feeling lack or scarcity, and let’s work on this. And then whenever we choose to, I tell people, now write out strategies that may include money or or that are non-monetary as we start to design bringing more fulfillment and meaning. This portion of your wealth portfolio, ,

[00:27:52] Jonathan DeYoe: you just said something that was amazing to me and I, it didn’t hit me. ’cause I think, I always think about the upside here, but y said the, the [00:28:00] poverty of those 12 things as well as the. A wealth of those 12 things, you get a one in something. Maybe that’s a good spot to look at, maybe boosting your overall wellbeing.

[00:28:09] Jonathan DeYoe: ’cause there’s gotta be some kind of balance, right? Really important to, to weigh that. , , we only look at the poverty and the wealth. But I could have a great family. I could have a, a great relationship with lots of touch and all the good things, abundance of everything, and no money.

[00:28:20] Jonathan DeYoe: And I can be totally

[00:28:21] Jonathan DeYoe: happy. And we see this all the time with people.

[00:28:23] Elizabeth Husserl: yeah. , , I’ll say two things are like Maya Angelou said, some people are so poor, all they have is money. I. Right. It’s such a poignant statement.

[00:28:31] Elizabeth Husserl: And the other thing that I would say too is that, that this is what was taught to me when I went to work in Oaxaca for two years, where it’s like I went there to teach indigenous women how to create savings and loan cooperatives. I was working in the piece of the pie of financial stability, right? So they didn’t have to be dependent on loan sharks. They taught me how wealthy they were in so many of these other areas. And I was like, wait a second, Jonathan. My work isn’t in Oaxaca. My work is back in the United States where we. Have so much and yet we [00:29:00] feel poor. What is that about?

[00:29:02] Elizabeth Husserl: Right? What is that feeling of scarcity? And I think the edginess is, you know, stating out loud is that we have poverty in different areas of our life. And one thing that I put on my Wealth

[00:29:14] Elizabeth Husserl: Manola on the website, I actually show a client sample, you know, and the client sample that’s there, I should actually write it out a little bit more, is this is an a VP C-suite.

[00:29:24] Elizabeth Husserl: Tech person who is financially independent does not need to work, but works out a choice. You’ll see he scored a two in touch and a two in physical health.

[00:29:35] Jonathan DeYoe: Yep.

[00:29:36] Elizabeth Husserl: And we had a really important

[00:29:37] Elizabeth Husserl: question there, a conversation there. ’cause I was like, I had to hold my tongue. I’m like, I have ideas for touch. I’m like, no, though his need to satisfy touch is gonna be different from mine.

[00:29:45] Elizabeth Husserl: And what we had was a really important conversation where there was a lot of trauma in his relationship with his mother. I. Right of not receiving

[00:29:55] Elizabeth Husserl: touch. Now he has a three-year-old at times, he doesn’t know how to [00:30:00] get close to her, and he’s feeling the grief of not knowing how to touch his child. Right. And I’m like, okay,

[00:30:06] Elizabeth Husserl: let’s have that conversation. There’s some grief work that needs to happen and we need to prioritize that. Right. And so it’s like if I hadn’t had

[00:30:14] Elizabeth Husserl: this conversation with him, Jonathan, we would not have discovered that. And no amount of money. Is going to make him feel closer to his child if we don’t get through the grief.

[00:30:23] Jonathan DeYoe: Yes. Wow. That’s, so I’m, there’s this undercurrent of basic awareness that’s at the foundation of all of this. so do you have practices or recommend practices, or do you recommend people meditate 10 minutes a day , what’s sort of the

[00:30:34] Jonathan DeYoe: thinking about general awareness? I.

[00:30:36] Elizabeth Husserl: Yes. Well, I.

[00:30:38] Elizabeth Husserl: what I would recommend is just literally have a, a 10 minute conversation with muddy every day. Like that’s what I do on my meditation cushion. I’m very relational, Jonathan. So I learn the hard way that going and just being quiet is harder for me.

[00:30:51] Elizabeth Husserl: Going and talking to money is easier. Right, and so there’s a way in which, , know your meditative style. I am married to someone who could spend like 45 minutes on the [00:31:00] cushion, , so I would recommend some type of awareness for sure. I like guided meditations and the conversation with money feels like

[00:31:07] Elizabeth Husserl: a guided meditation. The second practice that is very easy and anyone can start today is, do a a 30 day satiation challenge. And remember, satiation is the visceral experience of fulfillment. And so for 30 days, at the end of the day. Right. Write down three things that satisfied you. This is not gratitude. This is not at the hard experience of what you’re grateful for.

[00:31:32] Elizabeth Husserl: This is what am I satisfied? And a lot of times, Jonathan, it can be things that have been hard, right? A hard client conversation, finishing a project, doing that workout, cooking for everyone, and amazing meal. Like I’m making these things up. Like our meaningful conversation. Jonathan will make my list tonight.

[00:31:48] Elizabeth Husserl: I love these conversations, right? So for 30 days, write three things. Then don’t. Don’t think about it. At the end of the 30 days in one sitting, have a cup of tea and read through [00:32:00] all of them and start to see what are the patterns that you already know how to implement, the behaviors that bring satisfaction and satiation to your life. Then you could go back to the wealth modular and be like, okay, which area do I potentially feel some lack? Are there any patterns that would transfer over? Do you have transferable skills? Right, to add more fulfillment to these areas?

[00:32:23] Jonathan DeYoe: I, I just wanna say this, the idea of the satisfying and satisfying, and.

[00:32:28] Jonathan DeYoe: That’s where enough is, like that is the definition of enough and we seem to reach for more. We seem to get bent outta shape about stuff, but

[00:32:34] Jonathan DeYoe: enough is I am satisfied.

[00:32:36] Elizabeth Husserl: yeah, yeah. For me, the power of enough is the embodied experience of satiation.

[00:32:42] Jonathan DeYoe: Boom. to ask that question then. It’s perfect. So, so I ask everyone on this podcast to simplify it for us. So if you were talking to someone new for the first time, what is one thing they could do today that would start their journey towards financial healing and

[00:32:56] Jonathan DeYoe: satiation? I.

[00:32:58] Elizabeth Husserl: So I.

[00:32:58] Elizabeth Husserl: gave two techniques [00:33:00] already, but I would say first two belief changes. One is, , the power of enough is a human birthright. I cannot say that enough. Well, actually, , the power of enough is a human birthright and that is enough. We’ll let that be. I think the second piece is to own that you are in a relationship to money, and the easiest way to own that is by sitting down and talking to it.

[00:33:21] Elizabeth Husserl: Right? And then the third piece is do a satiation. Practice. Right. A satiation challenge for 30 days. Start to recognize how you already know how to satisfy yourself, ’cause you do know, right? And all of these things, Jonathan will improve your wealth portfolio without having to add one more dollar to your bank.

[00:33:40] Jonathan DeYoe: I love it. , on the flip side of that, that’s some things to do. What are some things that we’re doing that we should

[00:33:46] Jonathan DeYoe: stop doing?

[00:33:47] Elizabeth Husserl: Hmm, that’s a great question. . I.

[00:33:50] Elizabeth Husserl: think stop conflating wealth with money. Right? Start listening to the ways that we talk. , you know, how do you refer to [00:34:00] wealth? How do you refer to people who are wealthier in your life? What are you referring to? I personally, Jonathan, have committed , I am no longer am using the word net worth. When I talk with clients, I’m talking about

[00:34:12] Elizabeth Husserl: asset size, but I’m decoupling the idea of net worth from self-worth. Right? And so I’m being very mindful in how I talk about things, right? I also find it funny that words matter.

[00:34:23] Elizabeth Husserl: I

[00:34:24] Elizabeth Husserl: find it so funny in our industry that

[00:34:25] Elizabeth Husserl: we talk about in investments as securities. I’m like. Does anyone else hear that? Right? And so, the words matter as we talk about it. , you know, how do you talk about your relationship to money? What do your kids see you model is a really big one. So I think we just need to start to commit to decoupling those things.

[00:34:42] Elizabeth Husserl: Money and wealth are different things. Do not confuse them. Um.

[00:34:46] Jonathan DeYoe: Absolutely. Beautiful. Just before we wrap up, what is the last

[00:34:49] Jonathan DeYoe: thing you changed your mind about?

[00:34:51] Elizabeth Husserl: The last thing I changed my mind about, you know, what, this morning I was gonna,

[00:34:56] Elizabeth Husserl: I thought I didn’t have enough time to drive my daughter to school, [00:35:00] and she was having a really hard morning and I was like, you know what? We’re gonna make it happen. And we had the most wonderful conversation on the drive to school.

[00:35:07] Elizabeth Husserl: So the, the lack of time I’m going to, that’s my place of working on scarcity. So.

[00:35:12] Jonathan DeYoe: Beautiful. There’s so much in the book that everyone should just check out, read the book, get the book. Where do they get the

[00:35:17] Jonathan DeYoe: book and where do they find you?

[00:35:18] Elizabeth Husserl: Yeah, they can find me. So my website’s the easiest place, elizabeth hussel.com. That is H-U-S-S-E-R-L. You can also follow me on Instagram, but be mindful of your social media. , so I’m at, at Elizabeth Hussel and the book links are on, , the book links are on my website. And check out some local bookstores.

[00:35:37] Elizabeth Husserl: I’ve kept a couple signed ones there, and let’s support local. So those links are there as well.

[00:35:42] Jonathan DeYoe: Elizabeth, thanks so much for being on the podcast. I love the fact that we reconnected. It’s been a long time. We couldn’t figure out how long it’s been, but I’m glad we reconnected.

[00:35:49] Jonathan DeYoe: We’re definitely gonna have lunch, talk about some other things, so thanks on.

[00:35:51] Elizabeth Husserl: Yeah. thanks for having me, Jonathan. It’s been super fun.

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