Christine Benz — Rethinking Retirement: How to Plan for Wealth, Health, and Purpose

Working Edit

[00:00:00] Christine Benz: a collection of smaller P purposes is just fine too. While you’re waiting for this big animating big P purpose, you’re fine pursuing these little P purposes things like, you know, being a wonderful parent or partner and really committing yourself to those endeavors.

[00:00:19] Christine Benz: If you’ve been busy in your career and haven’t given yourself as much time to work on those things, retirement would provide such an opportunity or maybe pursuing some childhood hobby that you set aside because you just got too busy with your career and your family life. Well, retirement’s a really good time to recommit yourself to, , something like that.

[00:00:42] Intro: Do you think money takes up more life space than it should? On this show, we discuss with and share stories from artists, authors, entrepreneurs, and advisors about how they mindfully minimize the [00:01:00] time and energies. Spent thinking about money. Join your host, Jonathan DeYoe, and learn how to put money in its place and get more out of life.

[00:01:16] Jonathan DeYoe: Welcome, back, on this episode of The Mindful Money Podcast. I’m chatting with Christine Benz.

[00:01:21] Jonathan DeYoe: Christine is the director of personal finance and retirement planning for Morningstar and a senior columnist for morningstar.com. Her focus is on retirement and portfolio planning for individual investors.

[00:01:31] Jonathan DeYoe: She’s a frequent public speaker. I’ve seen her live a bunch of times. , she’s widely quoted in the media. She writes all the time for all the big publications I’ve read her for years and years and years. , Baron’s named her to the list of the 100 most influential Women in Finance in both 2020 and 2021.

[00:01:47] Jonathan DeYoe: And in 2021, they added her to the list of, the top 10 most Influe, influential women in wealth management, lots of lists. she’s the president of the board for the John c Bogle Center for Financial Literacy, the [00:02:00] Bogleheads Lover. Christine’s the author of multiple books, and I wanted to have her on the podcast, , to talk about the most recent efforts, how to retire, 20 lessons for Happy, successful, and Wealthy Retirement, Harriman House September, 2024.

[00:02:12] Jonathan DeYoe: Christine, welcome to the Mindful Money Podcast.

[00:02:15] Christine Benz: Oh, Jonathan, it’s so great to

[00:02:17] Christine Benz: be here. Thank you so much for having me on.

[00:02:19] Jonathan DeYoe: it’s a pleasure to meet you. I’ve seen you live, you’re kind of a star in finance, and, I feel bigger , having you on the show. , , to start, where do you call home? , where are you connecting from?

[00:02:27] Christine Benz: I am in the Chicago area, , where I’m looking out on kind of a snowy looking day. We’ve had some ice on the ground, which is my least favorite thing about, , Chicago. But overall it’s an amazing city,

[00:02:39] Jonathan DeYoe: Where’d you grow up?

[00:02:40] Christine Benz: up? I grew up right here. In fact, , , as my husband likes to joke,, we live about 45 seconds by car from my family home, so right in the very neighborhood where I grew up.

[00:02:53] Jonathan DeYoe: what did you learn about money and entrepreneurship growing up? I’m just curious.

[00:02:56] Christine Benz: So I have to say I was raised in a [00:03:00] very, , , you know, as I reflect on it, a very financially healthy household. I felt like my parents had a really good discipline around money. My dad, , was a business owner and my mom was a full-time mom. , there are six of us including, , a sister with special needs.

[00:03:16] Christine Benz: So my mom was a fully engaged onsite, , mother of, six kids. And, . I think my parents modeled out really healthy financial dynamics that they shared, , everything. , and my mom was the main kind of household financial manager. My dad was the investor in the family and my dad was actually a pretty engaged individual investor initially, and individual stocks, I think early in his investing career.

[00:03:43] Christine Benz: And then when mutual funds came along was Really interested in selecting mutual funds and was really one of the people who urged me to apply to Morningstar. He was someone who really liked what Morningstar was doing in terms of demystifying fund information, [00:04:00] and this was sort of in the early nineties period. , so my dad was someone who liked to talk about investing, think about investing, watched a lot of CNBC, and , definitely influenced me on my financial journey.

[00:04:13] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m curious. My dad was very. Similar, actually, the, the setup in my house is very similar. My, my mom

[00:04:18] Christine Benz: think it’s common.

[00:04:19] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Very common. , and we’re, I’m from South Dakota, so, you know, Midwest kind of a thing.

[00:04:23] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m wondering , did you have like Kipling’s and Money Magazine and those kind of things laying around when you were growing up?

[00:04:28] Christine Benz: Definitely, , as well as, , the journal and, , I think my dad for a period of time was getting Investors Business Daily, so yes. , we did have a lot of those publications around the house and, , and Barron’s and Business Week especially, I think was my dad’s weekly read. So yes, , we had a lot of those publications around.

[00:04:47] Jonathan DeYoe: did you engage those when you were like 9, 10, 11, 12? No. Not

[00:04:51] Christine Benz: at all.

[00:04:51] Christine Benz: No. In fact, it was sort of my dad’s weird little hobby that, , I didn’t really think too much about. He didn’t talk too much about it. He might have tried to, but , I had [00:05:00] no interest whatsoever to be honest.

[00:05:02] Jonathan DeYoe: ,, when did that pique your interest? When did you get Hmm. About this finance stuff?

[00:05:06] Christine Benz: Well, really when I joined Morningstar, I have to say, I came into Morningstar fairly cold with respect to any financial or investing knowledge. So in college I was a political science and Russian language major. I remember the night before my Morningstar interview, , was sitting at dinner with my husband and he was like, okay, so you know what a mutual fund is.

[00:05:25] Christine Benz: I was like, , and so my husband was, I. Think getting his MBA at the time. And so he gave me a little bit of coaching on, the basics of investing. But, , Morningstar was really great, especially back in those days where, , they were willing to hire liberal arts grads and train them up internally. So I went through a really terrific onsite training program at Morningstar. , eventually went through the certified financial planner program. And Morningstar actually had a terrific reading list for new hires, you know, where [00:06:00] they expected you to get through, , some of, , the seminal books like Random Walk Down wall Street, Jack Bogle’s books, um, a number of, of sort of key financial tone.

[00:06:11] Christine Benz: So that was a really helpful learning experience as well.

[00:06:15] Jonathan DeYoe: Good launch. I’m curious , what sort of a timeline, when did you start at Morningstar?

[00:06:19] Christine Benz: So I started in 1993. I’ve been there for , almost 32 years. , so yeah, it was the era of the star fund manager. I was trying to think of Peter Lynch’s book that was, , on our list as well. , the star fund managers at Fidelity and Janice and, , places like that , were sort of the. Main preoccupation for a lot of us young analysts.

[00:06:44] Jonathan DeYoe: Can you name like a story or a time when you saw your parents interact around money, , and that maybe triggered something in you.

[00:06:53] Christine Benz: You know, mostly I just remember a lot of peace and harmony

[00:06:57] Christine Benz: around money. And I remember there was [00:07:00] nothing like my parents paid for college for us. . I think out of household cash flow sort of, and, , weddings as well. And so I , I just do not remember an

[00:07:13] Christine Benz: unhealthy dynamic. , I remember when they paid off the house.

[00:07:16] Christine Benz: I think I might have been in high school or something like that, and how that was a happy day for them. But overall, my dad always said that. So I was the youngest of six. My dad always said that each child brought their own, that I think life got better for them and for his business, , certainly as he advanced in his career.

[00:07:35] Christine Benz: And, um, he, , felt comfortable , providing for all of us. But, I just. Remember a lot of, , tranquility about money from my parents, which, , as I hear more about other people’s financial situations, I realize how lucky I was.

[00:07:52] Jonathan DeYoe: For sure. I mean, I, I think my parents got along about money, but we didn’t have much money. So it’s, , I paid for school myself and those kinds of things. I, I think I [00:08:00] can count on one hand, , of the people I’ve interviewed, the people that would say we had enough and it was tranquil. So yeah, I’d say that’s very lucky.

[00:08:07] Christine Benz: One thing I do remember, that I reflect on is, so when I was applying for college, I had identified I wanted to go to. Carlton College in, , Minnesota and had gone up there, had gotten in, and I remember my dad and my mom, I think maybe discussed it and I think then we got zero financial aid, which, , you know, whatever.

[00:08:29] Christine Benz: I remember my dad coming to me and saying, honey, I think we have to fill out your university. D of Illinois application because obviously that was gonna be a lot more affordable for my parents. , and they were adamant that they did not want any of us to have any student loan debt, which I think may be a little bit outmoded, , way of thinking, but they were definitely, , very firm on that.

[00:08:51] Christine Benz: And so I do remember that as being a little bit of a disappointment, and I’m sure it was. So hard for them because, , I had been a really engaged [00:09:00] student and, , had a distinguished high school career, and so I’m sure that was difficult for them. As it turned out, it was just fine. I got a phenomenal education at University of Illinois, but I do remember that was a little bit of a sense of, oh, you know, we can’t do absolutely everything that

[00:09:16] Christine Benz: we might wish to do.

[00:09:18] Jonathan DeYoe: know that’s, this is not , your, I mean, you know all about all of it, but it’s not the primary area of retirement is your area. But, uh, this is something that we talk about a lot because I talk to a lot of people that are younger, you know, young families, , and this whole college race is insane.

[00:09:32] Jonathan DeYoe: ,, I have two kids, one 20 that’s in the process and one 17 that goes through it next year. And everyone wants to go to these really expensive colleges, and I don’t think there is a lot of value in it. Like, I don’t think that it’s much better to go to, you know, one of the Ivys compared to, you know, a, a basic uc company, uc school,, UCLA, , uc, Berkeley.

[00:09:53] Jonathan DeYoe: And it does,, coming outta that college with a pile of debt sets you back in the beginning. So I think that’s wise. , and it’s wise [00:10:00] of you to hear that, , as a kid, even though you didn’t want to, you wanted to go to Carlton,

[00:10:03] Christine Benz: it was great to come outta college with absolutely no consideration of, you know, I need to go down this career path because I have to pay off my college debt. That was really lovely in

[00:10:15] Christine Benz: hindsight to have that clean slate. I.

[00:10:17] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. What made you wanna write the book? What, what led to this book?

[00:10:22] Jonathan DeYoe: So a lot of different things. I think just to keep myself interested, I have gotten super interested in retirement decumulation because I feel like it’s the hardest problem in financial planning, deciding how much you can safely withdraw from a portfolio under this unknowable. Time horizon and then structuring that portfolio to support your cash flows and then all of the ancillary dimensions of retirement planning, like healthcare and long-term care planning. I just feel like there’s so much meat on the topic. And so in my work on [00:11:00] morningstar.com, I had been increasingly exploring, , all of the different tentacles of retirement planning for the podcast that I work on. I do interviews like you with. Thought leaders in various areas and had had the opportunity to meet a lot of , the people who are featured in the book. , and so that was really the genesis for the book. , and I have to credit Craig Pierce at Herriman House, who was my editor there. He, I had been talking about me doing some type of book with Harriman for a good five years proceeding me actually working on how to retire. And it was really Craig’s idea where I kept putting him off and I was like, I do not have time to work on a book.

[00:11:39] Jonathan DeYoe: I really wanna do it. And Craig’s idea was, well, what if we were to do a series of interviews about various aspects of retirement planning? Would that be more manageable for you? And my answer was yes, and I loved that. It also allowed me to tap into various wells of [00:12:00] expertise in areas where I’m not an expert.

[00:12:02] Jonathan DeYoe: Expert. So I’m not an expert in the realm of healthcare planning, for example, but Carolyn McClanahan is, I know a bit about tax planning for retirement, but Mike Piper is one of the real experts. So I loved that my, , imposter, , sort of feeling didn’t have to surface that I was able to be the interviewer and let the other folks sit in the expert seat.

[00:12:27] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, , I love the format. , because, you’ve cobbled together a virtual who’s who of expertise in retirement planning, , and , it’s amazing to go through and, you know, 20 pages on this, 15 pages on that,, and go through the whole thing. I. At the end of it. I’m wondering if, if you’ve gotten any questions about, oh my God, there’s so much more than I thought there was to retirement planning, , from the public, because I know , , you’re very public facing.

[00:12:49] Jonathan DeYoe: Has, has anyone said, Hey, this is, this is too much. This is overwhelming.

[00:12:53] Christine Benz: Not really Jonathan. And I have to say, I think one of the benefits of the Book’s format as a [00:13:00] series of interviews is that people can dip in and out of it. That you could go straight to the topic that you’re interested in and just read that and not touch the book for another two months. , , you know, it doesn’t demand that you read it as a cohesive whole. So I think that lets people kind of explore the various bits of it that they might be interested in. In terms of the feedback I’ve gotten on the book, one of the main pieces of feedback is that people really like the non-financial conversations. , because I will say that I’ve been someone who has. Toiled, probably too much on the financial realm of retirement planning and have not given enough attention to the non-financial pieces. And so a bit of feedback that I’ve gotten , in terms of emails and, you know, just talking with people over the book is that they really like the conversations like with Jordan Grommet on how to ensure that you don’t have regrets in the end.

[00:13:59] Christine Benz: Or [00:14:00] Michael Finca kicking off the book where he talks about having a vision for your retirement. , Michael is one of the leading retirement researchers and has done a lot of work on things like guaranteed income, but Michael wanted to talk mainly about what contributes to happiness and satisfaction later in life.

[00:14:20] Christine Benz: So that’s the main sort of. Theme, , from the feedback that I’ve gotten from people is that they really like some of those non-financial chapters.

[00:14:29] Jonathan DeYoe: When I was reading it, I sort of divided it into three. ’cause there, there are definitely technical chapters as well. I mean, Mike Piper’s there, there’s definitely some two, three chapters on different modes of, , retirement income decumulation process. So I, I sort of divide it into three different categories and I don’t know if you’ve thought about this, this way, , there’s the technical.

[00:14:47] Jonathan DeYoe: Number crunching that we’ve done all of our careers. There’s also the, , health oriented and there’s also the happiness oriented. Is that intentional? Have those three or is there four? Am I missing one? What do you think?

[00:14:58] Christine Benz: No, I think that, I [00:15:00] think those sound like the main categories that I can think of as well. , yeah, that sounds like a good ex encapsulation. I.

[00:15:07] Jonathan DeYoe: So , of the people you’ve talked to, what are the best I. Tips tricks specifically in the, data, in the number crunching, , that you got outta the interviews.

[00:15:16] Christine Benz: , , we talk about, , retirement income styles, or I talked about retirement income styles with Wade f.

[00:15:24] Jonathan DeYoe: Hmm.

[00:15:24] Christine Benz: And Wade is another of the leading retirement researchers. He came up with this great, , kind of style box for investors or for retirees , it’s very personal what you’re looking for in terms of your retirement cash flows, and we’re all wired a little bit differently in terms of what we want, like some people might say. Give me the guarantees. , I don’t want a monkey around with a total return portfolio and the uncertainty that, , , that entails. I would rather have something that is basically a secure source of , cash flows throughout my [00:16:00] retirement, akin to a pension. Other people might say, no, absolutely.

[00:16:04] Christine Benz: I want that optionality that I have. With that total return portfolio, I want the opportunity to manage it as I see fit. I want the opportunity to ride on the stock markets coattails and see my portfolio grow over my lifecycle. So I just think that’s an illuminating. Section of the book where you hone in on your specific, , retirement style.

[00:16:30] Christine Benz: And it, I think it is very individual, specific. People like me who have mainly worked in the context of an employer where I’ve had a salary my whole career. I basically want something that feels a lot like a salary in retirement, whereas you might have folks who are, , maybe a commission based sales person, for example, where you might say, well, I’ve always had variability in my cash flows, so I’m comfortable with something that entails a little bit more uncertainty.

[00:16:58] Christine Benz: So I really enjoyed that [00:17:00] chapter. , Wade includes a link to a questionnaire that people can do to kind of hone in on their. Specific retirement income style. I think that’s well worth doing. I made several of my colleagues go through it and we had a good conversation about our results. , so I think that’s a good, , discussion in the book.

[00:17:19] Christine Benz: We talk about withdrawal rates with David Blanche, who was my former colleague at Morningstar, where we examine, or David has examined in his research the trajectory of

[00:17:30] Christine Benz: retirement spending. , this model that we often talk about, where we assume that someone’s going to take kind of a fixed reel withdrawal from the portfolio throughout retirement. It doesn’t really stand up to the research we see that. People spending tends to be highest in the early years of retirement, and then trails fairly steadily down throughout retirement before heading up later in life for a segment of our population, especially for folks who have [00:18:00] uninsured long-term care costs.

[00:18:02] Christine Benz: So I, think that’s another dimension.

[00:18:04] Jonathan DeYoe: I heard, uh, in, in that, in that chapter you talked about the, he, he talked about the retirement spending smile

[00:18:10] Jonathan DeYoe: and the thought, , my finance brain said, yeah, but that smile is pretty skewed. Like, it’s very gradual and then a sharp spike at the end, right? Because of the, the healthcare.

[00:18:18] Christine Benz: Right. And I asked David about that other side of the smile, the , right hand side of the smile. And his point is actually that. Those higher spending rates later in life don’t occur in every retiree household, that it’s actually a small share of our population does have ca catastrophic out-of-pocket healthcare costs, mainly long-term care costs. Later in life, but many people skate with no out of pocket or very limited out-of-pocket healthcare costs. So the tricky part is it’s hard to know which category he’ll fall in, whether you will escape long-term care expenses , [00:19:00] or have them. , but I think that’s an important point. Not everyone sees their spending go up later in life.

[00:19:07] Christine Benz: Some people

[00:19:08] Christine Benz: nicely avoid those expenses.

[00:19:10] Jonathan DeYoe: Mean, honestly, what do you think about William Bernstein’s advice on tips? I, when I, I. I am a Nick Murray guy of old, I’ve been doing this for 30 years. You said this a commissioned salesperson. I’ve worked on fees for, with, for clients for 30 years. So I’m totally comfortable with volatility and risk and, I actually believe equities are the best thing to fight inflation over a long period of time.

[00:19:31] Jonathan DeYoe: And I read the tips thing and I was like, Ugh. I just, it hit me wrong. Uh, what do you, what do you think about that?

[00:19:38] Christine Benz: Well, bill is a genius.

[00:19:39] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, I know. I.

[00:19:40] Christine Benz: say that. , so Bill’s point for people who haven’t read the book is that. Jobs one, two, and three. As you think about constructing your retirement portfolio, is to build essentially a ladder of tips, and there’s a lot that’s perfect about treasury inflation protected securities. They’re the only [00:20:00] security that is. Going to keep you whole with respect to inflation. So they will pass on an inflation increase in line with whatever the CPI adjustment is. , so that’s the key attraction. , so Bill, you know, does tend to look at things. Somewhat from an academic, , standpoint, and so that is what he’s responding to there.

[00:20:23] Christine Benz: If you were to look at the perfect securities to carry you through and address your retirement spending needs, well tips do check a lot of the key boxes. , I happen to think that, you know, most people probably don’t want a solution as sort of radical as that all tips portfolio that maybe you would do a little bit of a hybrid, where you would perhaps build a tips ladder to meet , your core spending that is not coming from non portfolio sources like Social Security and then use equities for the remainder [00:21:00] of the portfolio. So, . I wanted to showcase a variety of perspectives on portfolio construction. That’s why I had JL Collins in there as kind of a counterpoint where JL

[00:21:11] Christine Benz: Collins was like maybe some fixed income, maybe some cash. But for him it’s mainly that all equity portfolio that you. Been from, with my chapter where I was interviewed by my colleague Susan Dubinski. I talked about using kind of a bucket type

[00:21:28] Christine Benz: approach to portfolio construction, and I think that gets back to Wade Fas chapter really, that we’re all a little bit different in terms of what we’re looking for. For myself, I think I’m probably in the camp of wanting to buy perhaps, , some type of very basic annuity to augment.

[00:21:46] Christine Benz: What we get from Social Security and then build kind of a bucketed portfolio from there. But , we’re all wired a little bit differently and, if advisors are listening to this, this idea of just sort of [00:22:00] laying one solution on every client to me just doesn’t really add up that you should address each client, , in terms of what their own attitudes are.

[00:22:10] Jonathan DeYoe: , what were the best things you heard about the health part? Making the body last. I know that, , Carolyn McClanahan, gave us some advice on healthcare and, decisions in long-term care.

[00:22:20] Jonathan DeYoe: , Jean Chatzky talked about women specifically. , what are some of the best things you heard in the whole interview process about the health portion?

[00:22:26] Christine Benz: Yeah, so Carolyn McClannahan is a, is a doctor, she’s a physician and she’s also a financial planner, which is one reason why she’s such a hot commodity in financial planning circles. And so, , I did ask Carolyn, in the years leading up to retirement, what can people do to improve their health outcomes? And Carolyn is such a realist, but I also felt that she was pretty positive in her messaging, which is basically like if you’re someone who has not had an opportunity to devote a lot of time and attention to your health and wellbeing, it’s not [00:23:00] too late to start doing a little better. So I felt her messaging was very empowering, but she also, .

[00:23:07] Christine Benz: Talked about the importance of understanding what type of healthcare user you are , and in the years leading up to retirement, you’ve probably gotten some pretty good clues about your own health and also about your own attitudes toward seeking help with financial matters. From healthcare professionals.

[00:23:26] Christine Benz: So Carolyn has a discussion in there about understanding where you fall on the spectrum. Are you a heavy healthcare user where you want regular, ongoing contact with the physician community? Or are you someone who wants very limited contact with, , healthcare professionals? Understanding where you fall on that ?

[00:23:47] Christine Benz: Spectrum can help you understand, you know, what sort of healthcare insurance you want to obtain in retirement. I think that’s an important, , discussion point. In terms of, , Jean [00:24:00] chat’s, chapter, Jean talks about , how women tend to live a couple of years. Longer than our , male counterparts.

[00:24:07] Christine Benz: And there are implications for how we think about long-term care planning specifically. So if we are part of a couple and there’s a chance that we will outlive our male partners, Jean makes the point that it’s really important to make sure that we are, , thinking about a long-term care plan, whether that’s long-term care insurance or something else.

[00:24:29] Jonathan DeYoe: I was like moderately successful for lots of years and , one year I hired my first employee. I lost 70 pounds. , and, I started paying attention to my health again. And that was literally the year that launched my career. , so I always focused with people on Health first. . Reduces your healthcare costs longer.

[00:24:49] Jonathan DeYoe: And we just talked earlier about how not everyone has those heavy healthcare costs later in life. If you walk and eat good food and drink plenty of water and get plenty of sleep, I think that that moves you towards the less, [00:25:00] you know, heavy healthcare costs later in life. I think it’s really important. I love the fact that you’ve stuck that in there as a, as an important factor of retirement planning.

[00:25:06] Jonathan DeYoe: ’cause I don’t think people think about it, , enough.

[00:25:09] Christine Benz: , you know, I always think to myself, like, if I’m looking at a jam packed schedule, it’s like easy to sort of think about, oh, , I’ll skip the exercise today. But, you know, think of it as kind of our hierarchy. There is literally nothing more important, that you could do with your time in that day. , and I always just find that to be such a nice centering mechanism.

[00:25:29] Jonathan DeYoe: You can sort of, uh. Point fire or, , or, gamify anything, right? And so I used to give myself, I had a little pad of paper and I gave myself points. If I worked out that day, that was 10 points. And that’s not calling a client, that’s not taking care of, you know, that’s just working out was 10 points.

[00:25:44] Jonathan DeYoe: Eating healthy was 10 points and the goal was 50 points by the end of the day. So it’s just whatever you need to do to get your workout in, I think it’s so important, , for your life. .

[00:25:52] Christine Benz: And sleep.

[00:25:53] Jonathan DeYoe: And sleep. Yeah. And water, you know, less alcohol, more water. That’s, that’s huge.

[00:25:57] Jonathan DeYoe: , I know so many people are making that transition now too.

[00:25:59] Jonathan DeYoe: [00:26:00] So, , sort of the last segment of the three is this happiness

[00:26:03] Jonathan DeYoe: piece. So what were some of the most important tips? I know that, , Laura Carstensen and, and Jordan g Grumet were the ones that stood out for me, but I don’t know if those stand out for you, if there’s others.

[00:26:12] Christine Benz: No, they, they truly do. So Laura Carstensen is , the head of the Stanford Center on Longevity. She’s one of my favorite thinkers in this whole space. If anyone has. Had a chance to watch one of her TED talks, for example. they know, but you, , should check it out because she is just such a, , great communicator and a great thinker.

[00:26:33] Christine Benz: , Laura discussed the role of relationships. , it turns out, in all of the research on human happiness and life satisfaction, it really does point to. Who we love, who loves us, it’s everything in terms of our life satisfaction. So we talked about, , relationships and aging in Laura’s chapter. \, and she made the point that older adults often do see their social [00:27:00] networks winnow down a little bit. As they age, and some of that is happening for not happy reasons, that maybe friends are moving away or even getting sick and dying. And, her point is that even though those life events can be really difficult, that overall it’s okay if your Social networks winnow down a little bit that you’re probably self-selecting into more satisfying, deeper relationships that you may get away from some of those peripheral relationships.

[00:27:32] Christine Benz: And examples she gives is like your kids friends parents, , might have been perfectly fine people to spend time with at the soccer game or whatever the case might be, but they’re not. Truly the people who light you up. And so her point is that we are, as we age, tending to select into smaller pair groups.

[00:27:52] Christine Benz: You just wanna be careful to not let those groups get too small because of some of those sad life events that can come [00:28:00] into play. So you wanna be always kind of building out that , smaller, inner circle.

[00:28:05] Jonathan DeYoe: love that chapter and I love it because that message of it’s okay for the friend group to winnow a little bit, that’s not what I read anywhere else. Everyone else has panicked about the loneliness epidemic and how we’re all running out of friends and we’re all gonna be alone. , and I think it’s really good to just note that, hey, it’s natural A and B, it’s probably okay, but.

[00:28:26] Jonathan DeYoe: , the additional need for the depth. You don’t want a breadth that you want depth, you want the depth of friendship’s. Very, very, very important and I think it’s really important to note that it’s okay. You know, it, it’s natural. It’s okay.

[00:28:36] Christine Benz: I also loved, , Laura’s point on introverts versus extroverts. , she makes the point that our culture tells us that the extroverts are the happy people, but that’s not actually born out by the data that. Introverts can be just as happy. So if you’re someone who really, you know, likes to get lost in a book or loves to have your head down in the garden, that’s fine, but you [00:29:00] too do need that close social network.

[00:29:02] Christine Benz: , you don’t have to be out there, you know, fully extroverted, but , you do need to make sure that you have that close inner circle. The people you can really rely on, , to talk through things and just to be with you through good and bad times.

[00:29:16] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, yeah. , let’s talk about Jordan Gruman a little bit. He’s, uh, the little p purpose. I love it. , I think it’s really important. I think we. I’ll focus on the big P, but , let’s talk about the little p.

[00:29:25] Christine Benz: Yeah, this is Jordan’s latest book, which is called The Purpose Code. I know that we’re both fans of, , Jordan, I believe he’s been on your podcast a few times already. He’s been on my Morningstar podcast as well. , I remember when I was telling my husband, I was like, okay, so I’m gonna use Jordan’s chapter to close the book.

[00:29:42] Christine Benz: He was like, really? You’re gonna use a hospice doctor’s, , chapter to close your book? The chapter, , and the discussion that Jordan I and I had, I thought was incredibly uplifting because he talks about this concept of purpose. , the idea that you need to have some animating [00:30:00] principle or principles, , for your days.

[00:30:02] Christine Benz: And that’s important earlier in your life, but it’s also important in your later years. And, , Jordan talked. About his work with people who are on their death beds, about what they regretted, what they wish they had done in their lifetime. So we discussed some of the takeaways from those conversations that Jordan has had. , but he introduces this concept of. Big P purpose, which is kind of the stuff that people, when they come into retirement, they think that they should have that. So that might be like, oh, I need to start a foundation, or I need to, , climb all the major peaks in the, in the world, , and those are fine if you have those things that you want to do. But his point I thought was very reassuring, which is that a collection of smaller P purposes is just fine too. While you’re waiting for this big animating big P purpose, you’re fine pursuing these little P [00:31:00] purposes things like, , you know, being a wonderful parent or partner and really committing yourself to those endeavors.

[00:31:07] Christine Benz: If you’ve been busy in your career and haven’t. Given yourself, , as much time to work on those things, , retirement would provide such an opportunity or maybe pursuing some childhood hobby that you set aside because you just got too busy with your career and your family life. Well, retirement’s a really good time to recommit yourself to, , something like that.

[00:31:31] Christine Benz: So Jordan’s example was he had been a baseball card collector earlier in his life and still really loved that stuff. , and so his thought is just that you don’t need to have this grandiose. Purpose. You may, but you may not. And it, and while you’re thinking about it, work on those small p purposes as well.

[00:31:52] Christine Benz: So I found it really uplifting, empowering, , , and just kind of comforting. , so for people who have, , what Jordan calls purpose [00:32:00] anxiety, , having that collection of small p purpose is, , , just as good.

[00:32:05] Jonathan DeYoe: , we Buddhists call it, , chop wood, carry water. Like it’s the little things. Just be where you are, do what you’re doing, focus on what you’re doing, like be in the moment. That’s,

[00:32:13] Christine Benz: I love, that.

[00:32:14] Jonathan DeYoe: it. Yeah. Chop wood, carry water.

[00:32:17] Jonathan DeYoe: I wanna just go industry for a second. What do you think the advisor’s role is in all of this?

[00:32:23] Jonathan DeYoe: I have a lot of advisors on the podcast. I always ask them what their circle of competence is, , I mean, when I started 30 years ago, it was selling stocks and then it was selling mutual funds, then it went through planning and the portfolio design, and now it’s like life planning and long-term care.

[00:32:40] Jonathan DeYoe: It’s everything. Where does the role of the advisor break off and the role of therapists, psychologists, coaches, health professionals, academics, , come in?

[00:32:49] Jonathan DeYoe: Are advisors supposed to do it all, or, are we supposed to coordinate it or what’s, what’s the role of the advisor in all of this?

[00:32:55] Christine Benz: Yeah, I love your question to advisors about what their circle of competence [00:33:00] is. , but I also do love that, , the view of what an advisor does is becoming much more holistically. , you mentioned Nick Murray. I just actually talked to him this morning. , and , we talked about the evolution of financial advice to be much more in the direction of what he has long talked about, where the advisor is helping the client connect with some of their deeper life goals.

[00:33:27] Christine Benz: but I do think it depends on the advisor’s comfort level. Not every advisor will want to be in that space, but I do think, . You know, helping clients get away from this, especially with respect to retirement planning, this sort of on-off switch aspect to retirement that I think we’ve labored under for a lot of years, where, you have this hard stop to work. I would love to see advisors at least explore that dimension of it where you know, you’re really questioning clients [00:34:00] about, Ok what’s.

[00:34:01] Christine Benz: What’s your plan for your time in retirement? And I think for a lot of clients, , from a financial standpoint, working longer in some capacity makes a ton of sense, but also from a life standpoint, continuing to work or continuing to at least. Bring the happy aspects of work forward and doing them longer makes a ton of sense.

[00:34:23] Christine Benz: So I would like most advisors at a minimum to be having that discussion with their clients with respect to retirement planning, kind of the phased-in retirement.

[00:34:34] Jonathan DeYoe: I asked the question specifically to figure out who’s still picking stocks or picking investments and timing markets and who thinks of the larger picture. ‘ there are a lot of dinosaurs out there that are still like, yeah, I’ll manage your investments.

[00:34:46] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m like, that’s just not enough. , and you’re charging too much for that. So, um, it’s crazy.

[00:34:51] Christine Benz: Right. And the behavioral coaching, you know, the thought that behavioral coaching is all around like , helping you make avoid stupid decisions with your [00:35:00] portfolio. Yeah, definitely coach there. But also there are a lot of other areas where you can coach behaviorally too, I would think. , and I’d like to see advisors talk more about those sorts of issues.

[00:35:11] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, I totally agree. , there’s a lot of noise out there. , and I ask this of almost every guest that comes on, I want you to simplify it for us.

[00:35:19] Christine Benz: Hmm.

[00:35:20] Jonathan DeYoe: , consider maybe a, a, a couple, three to five years away from retirement. The book has lots of stuff in it. What’s one thing that they can focus on immediately that would lead to a happier, more successful retirement?

[00:35:32] Christine Benz: I think thinking about this phased in concept, ,

[00:35:36] Christine Benz: In retirement, if you are. Say even 10 years from retirement. It’s a wonderful life stage to think about how can I get my work to be more agreeable to me so I that I can continue to do it longer? I’ve been recommending the Sunday night calendar test where you’re looking ahead to the week and inevitably you see days on that calendar where you go, [00:36:00] that’s gonna be a really fun day.

[00:36:01] Christine Benz: I’m doing this, this, and this thing that I enjoy. And then you see another. Date on your calendar where it’s like, oh, that looks like a slog. I’ll get through that. Can you try to, maybe even in stealth mode where you’re not even actively talking to your employer about this, can you try to get your work to be more on those? Really good days and less of the, tasks that you dread. And of course it’s a work in progress. Inevitably your employer will want you to do some things that you don’t love. But I think that that is such a valuable thing that people can do for themselves to, , phase into retirement, , gradually over a period of of years.

[00:36:44] Jonathan DeYoe: And then the flip side of that is, what’s one thing that they’re doing? You know, a lot of people are worried about a lot of stuff. What’s one thing that they’re doing that’s not helping them? Something that by stopping doing it would also lead to a happier, more successful retirement.

[00:36:57] Christine Benz: Hmm. I don’t know that I have a [00:37:00] good answer to that.

[00:37:01] Jonathan DeYoe: Take a second. It’s okay.

[00:37:04] Christine Benz: I would say probably focusing disproportionately on the portfolio to pick up on that point that you just made, Jonathan trying to move the needle with the portfolio’s results. , and specifically I think, you know, kind of chasing what has worked well in the recent past in terms of how to, , structure the portfolio that’s probably not serving investors very well.

[00:37:29] Christine Benz: So, , if you’re thinking about your financial wherewithal with respect to retirement, think about it holistically rather than having that narrow focus on your portfolio and how can you do better with investment selection?

[00:37:42] Jonathan DeYoe: thanks for coming on. This has been great. I have two. More sort of return to the personal questions before we wrap up. First. This always shocks people a little bit, but uh, what was the last thing you changed your mind about?

[00:37:54] Christine Benz: Well, I guess one example, and this isn’t super recent, but I had always been, , someone who showed up late [00:38:00] to the airport. Late-ish. And my husband was more in the camp of like, get there early, you can get a cup of coffee, relax.

[00:38:08] Christine Benz: You could do some work there. So that’s been, , one thing that, kind of talking to him and, and living that with him, I’ve realized, oh, that is a better way to do it. So I’m, in fact, we’ll talk about what time to get to the airport and I sometimes will surprise him with how early I am thinking we should leave.

[00:38:26] Christine Benz: So maybe that’s one small thing.

[00:38:29] Jonathan DeYoe: I love it. I want you to talk to my wife. We’re the same.

[00:38:32] Christine Benz: Are you the early or the late?

[00:38:34] Jonathan DeYoe: No, I’m the early, let’s get the earliest, have a cup of coffee, read a book, this chill. Don’t have to stress, you know? I love that. That’s why I want you to talk to her, convince her of that. It’s so much easier that way. then the last thing is, if you could get the truth about one question, you know, about your future, about your life, I, I won’t know the answer, but what would you ask?

[00:38:51] Christine Benz: So if I could like see into the future.

[00:38:53] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah.

[00:38:55] Christine Benz: Well, I think, you know, knowing how long I’d live and how [00:39:00] healthy my life would be, would be an important input. It would help me figure out a little more how to manage my time, but I have been thinking a ton about time management. , recently talked to Sahil Bloom,

[00:39:13] Christine Benz: um, who has a new book coming out called The Five Types of Wealth.

[00:39:17] Christine Benz: And there’s a lot in the book about time management and I realize I’m quite time impoverished and I think many of us are. , so you kind of rate yourself on five key metrics, and that was one where I was doing fine in the other four areas, but , did terribly in terms of time management, having a little bit more of a sense about my longevity and my overall health through the life cycle.

[00:39:44] Christine Benz: I guess that would be an important input in helping me figure out how to spend my time.

[00:39:48] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, it’s beautiful. , let people know how to connect with you. Where do they find you online, et cetera.

[00:39:53] Christine Benz: Thank you. So I’m on morningstar.com very regularly, , writing articles, doing videos. My [00:40:00] podcast is called The Longview. I’m on XA little bit. Christine underscore, Bens also on LinkedIn. Trying to do a little more on LinkedIn in the year ahead. , so those are the main outlets and and thank you so much for having me on.

[00:40:14] Jonathan DeYoe: , it’s been an absolute pleasure. I wanna tell everybody that’s listening, go out and get the book, how to Retire, 20 Lessons for a Happy, successful and Wealthy Retirement. , Christine, thank you so much for being a guest.

[00:40:23] Christine Benz: Jonathan, thank you so much. Love talking to you.

[00:40:26] Outro: Thanks for listening. Full show notes for each episode, which includes a summary, key takeaways, quotes, and any resources mentioned are available at Mindful Money. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. And if you’re enjoying the content and getting value from these episodes, please leave us a rating and review ratethispodcast.com/mindfulmoney. We’ll be sure to read those out on future [00:41:00] episodes.