Alexandra Hudson — The Lost Art of Civility with Alexandra Hudson

[00:00:00] Alexandra Hudson: The logic of the world, the logic of, normalcy, economic stability is to be good to people who can do things for us, who are like us, who we like. The logic of civility is how do we treat people who are not like us, who we differ from, and who we do not like and who will never be able to repay us. Every single human being, regardless of what they’ve done or how crazy their views are on something, is deserving of a bare minimum of respect just by virtue of our shared moral status. Full stop.

[00:00:30] Intro: Do you think money takes up more life space than it should? On this show, we discuss with and share stories from artists, authors, entrepreneurs, and advisors about how they mindfully minimize the time and energies. Spent thinking about money. Join your host, Jonathan DeYoe, and learn how to put money in its place and get more out of [00:01:00] life.

[00:01:04] Jonathan DeYoe: Hey there. Welcome back on this episode of The Mindful Money Podcast. I’m chatting with Lexi Hudson. , Lexi’s a author, speaker and founder of Civic Renaissance, publication and intellectual community dedicated to beauty, goodness, and truth, composed of 50,000 intellectually curious people across the globe. She’s advised foreign governments from Canada to the UK, is regularly heard speaking at venues like Stanford and Yale Law School. She earned her Master’s in Public Policy at the London School of Economics as a Rotary Scholar, which is important, and is also the creator of a series for The Teaching Company called Storytelling and the Human Condition. She was named the 2020 Novak Journalism Fellow and contributes broadly across all media. I wanted to have her on the podcast to discuss her bestselling book, The Soul of Civility: Timeless Principles to Heal Society and Ourselves, published by St. Martin’s Press, and she’s joining us with Bash.

[00:01:59] Jonathan DeYoe: [00:02:00] So you may see a hand pop up in the video. You may hear some noise. That’s okay. , we’re, we’re doing this. She’s got no support of the home right now, so we got three kids in the background we’re trying to manage. It’s all, it’s all good. Uh, I hope everyone gets a lot of this podcast. Um, Lexi, welcome to the Mindful Money Podcast.

[00:02:14] Alexandra Hudson: for having me, Jonathan. A pleasure to be with you.

[00:02:17] Jonathan DeYoe: First, where do you call home and where are you connecting from?

[00:02:20] Alexandra Hudson: . What I call home is different from where I live currently. , I call home Vancouver, Canada. That’s where I grew up. It’s where my parents still are. It’s where my husband and I got married. , and I just, my soul feels at rest when I look. At where the mountains meet the sea. Like I just get the ocean and the mountains in one view, scape.

[00:02:40] Alexandra Hudson: And it’s just, it’s a miraculously beautiful place. I hope you get, you and your viewers get to visit one day if you have not already. So Vancouver is home, but I live, , I live in Indianapolis, Indiana right now, which is, which is absolutely a home. You know, I, I’ve had three children here. It’s where my husband, he’s from Indiana originally.

[00:02:58] Alexandra Hudson: , he’s from here. , [00:03:00] So, yeah, I live in, I live in the Midwest now. Where? Where? Whereabouts are you, Jonathan?

[00:03:05] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m in Berkeley, California.

[00:03:06] Jonathan DeYoe: I’ve been to Vancouver. I ski in BC as, as often as I can. , I love, uh, the snow up north, but I’m from South Dakota, so I’m from the middle of the country, also beautiful, beautiful area. I.

[00:03:16] Alexandra Hudson: I may be in Northern California in May, so I’ll let you know if I make it up there. I remember, , when I visited Berkeley, , it was like back to back, like. Day, day to day. It was like two days in a row. I was at Berkeley and Stanford, and I couldn’t believe the juxtaposition, like Berkeley was this wild, beautiful state of nature.

[00:03:34] Alexandra Hudson: And Stanford was this restrained, pristine, like paradise, like glowing palm trees and glowing like

[00:03:41] Alexandra Hudson: terracotta. The juxtaposition was, was acute, shall we say.

[00:03:47] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. And, and , when you hire somebody from Stanford versus Cal, it’s acute. When you talk to a Cal grad versus Stanford grad, it is acute. It’s very, it’s a very specific culture. growing Up in Canada, , in Vancouver, what did you learn about [00:04:00] money in entrepreneurship?

[00:04:01] Alexandra Hudson: Ooh, interesting question. I came from a very kind of atypical Canadian family. Like my mom is Canadian, my dad’s from New England originally, and my mom, I. She won’t mind me saying this at all. She’s the most American Canadian you’ll ever meet. Like, she’s like unbelievably industrious and entrepreneurial.

[00:04:20] Alexandra Hudson: She had us reading these books, rich Dad, poor Dad, and like we had this game we played as a kid called Cash Flow about like, do you know this game? You know the game?

[00:04:29] Alexandra Hudson: I’m.

[00:04:29] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah.

[00:04:30] Alexandra Hudson: Exactly, and so like, how do we cultivate passive income? And like, you know, she was always my, both my parents are very outside the box thinkers.

[00:04:38] Alexandra Hudson: They’re very innovative, very entrepreneurial. Neither of them have had normal jobs ever because they don’t, they’re creative people like, and I like, you know, I shouldn’t have been surprised. When I failed so painfully out of normal jobs because like, that’s just not how I was raised, you know? And so, my parents both worked for themselves.

[00:04:55] Alexandra Hudson: I worked for myself. . I would say it’s more like what my family taught me about money and [00:05:00] entrepreneurship rather than what Canada taught me. , my and my parents taught me, , you know, to work hard for what we, for what we wanted and what we, what we have to appreciate it, to enjoy it.

[00:05:10] Alexandra Hudson: , and they taught us. My parents are not complacent. They’re, they’re very hardworking, , hardworking people. , they taught us to see needs in the world and to seek to fill them, our creative and endeavors. And with my, father, he’s a filmmaker and a storyteller and a, and a professor now of film and cinematography at a small liberal arts college called Trinity Western University in Vancouver, Canada, or just outside of Vancouver rather, which is the school I went to where my mom went where.

[00:05:38] Alexandra Hudson: My brothers and all my cousins went. It’s a whole family affair at Trinity. And my mom, it’s kind of a family business, this thing called social norms and civility. And propriety. She’s called Judy, the Manners lady. And so she, , I. She, she came to that vocation kind of organically by seeing a need and filling it.

[00:05:57] Alexandra Hudson: She started out, she was a supermodel [00:06:00] in, in Paris and traveled all over the world modeling. , and then when she finally met and married my father, she started just having a little side hustle, , teaching etiquette to young girls, like con self-confidence, how to walk, how to dress, and how to, you know, do makeup like, because that was like what she knew.

[00:06:15] Alexandra Hudson: , but also taught social skills, you know, how to introduce yourself, how to carry a conversation, how to, , yeah, just carry yourself , with dignity and grace. So to be other, other oriented and in our engagement with others. And then she had parents with these young girls saying, well, can you teach her younger sister, my younger children as well?

[00:06:31] Alexandra Hudson: So it kind of evolved into this curricula for children, which is what she’s best known for. Now, , she’s got a children’s album that I, I sing two songs on, and she does customer service, , seminars for companies or school assemblies for children. An anti-bullying curricula for schools that, that care about that, , all school should care about that.

[00:06:51] Alexandra Hudson: , and so , my mom, she saw a need and, and she, she and she met it and she spent. Three decades of her life [00:07:00] dedicated to this. The what? Dale Carnegie, the self-help

[00:07:02] Alexandra Hudson: author, how to Win Friends and Influence People. He called it the Fine Art of Getting Along. And my mom was passionate about this thing, this tricky business called Life Together with others.

[00:07:12] Alexandra Hudson: And so I was raised in this, this home that, that cared about, , cared about this topic, but yeah. So , , your question was about money. So I kind of got off topic, but it all comes, all comes full circle a little bit.

[00:07:22] Jonathan DeYoe: so I’m, I’m curious, , is that, , being raised in that household with your mom, does that lead to the book or how does that lead to the book?

[00:07:28] Alexandra Hudson: I would say it’s both an extension of and a response to her and how I was raised. Like I remember, my mom, you know, again, again called Judy, the manners lady. You can imagine what that was like. She’s, she cared about pro pride. She cared about manners, although I will give her credit, she cared about them to the extent.

[00:07:47] Alexandra Hudson: That they helped us do life together with others. And she was, she’s the first to dispense with the rules of propriety and etiquette, the moment that they get in the way of, of life together with others. And I really commend [00:08:00] her, , for that. , but, ,, I remember growing up, she would ask us to set the table just so forks here, knives here, or she would , , teach us how to.

[00:08:08] Alexandra Hudson: Shake hands when we met someone new and introduced ourselves, how to cut our food, how to hold our knife. And I remember, , you know, wondering why, why do we do things the way that we do them? And my mother often just impatient with me to get done. What she was asking me to do would say, this is just the way we do it now, do it.

[00:08:26] Alexandra Hudson: And that never satisfied me. I remember like this. So this book is kind of the product. Of a life of thinking about these topics. A life of thinking about what are our social norms and why do we do things the way we do them are the way that we do things the best or only way often. No, you know, like some parts of the world eat with their hands or with.

[00:08:46] Alexandra Hudson: Utensils of a different variety like chopsticks, other people, other cultures, greet not with a handshake and a smile and eye contact, but with a bow and deferring eye contact. That’s what’s is considered respectful. , , you know, we don’t burp at the [00:09:00] dinner table and at other cultures they do on purpose.

[00:09:02] Alexandra Hudson: It’s a sign of respect , and trust and honor to your host. And so, , I’ve been thinking about these questions for a long time, and it all gets back to the question of the good life. You know, what is, what is the best way to live , and what is the good life with others and how do we do it, , especially now in our deeply divided time.

[00:09:17] Alexandra Hudson: And so as I mentioned, it’s both a response to, , and an extension of, , my childhood being raised with the banners lady.

[00:09:24] Jonathan DeYoe: , did you study philosophy somewhere along the way? I mean, you, you talk about the good life, you bring up Martin Buber, which I’ve, I I love Martin Buber, you know, all the books. Uh, so where does that come in?

[00:09:36] Alexandra Hudson: , yes, , my father, he is, both my parents are insatiably curious, uh, intellectually omnivorous people who just are unendingly, interested in the world around them and, and learning and growing. , and my father at night, , my, my father has one of his masters in, , , in philosophy that his, one of his masters on, on Plato and Nietzsche.

[00:09:59] Alexandra Hudson: . [00:10:00] And he would read to us about Plato’s theory of the forms at night, and we just, our home was just a unending, . arena of dialogue and inquiry, and I think that’s the greatest gift my parents gave me was, , was curiosity was just a, an insatiable desire to know and grow and, and just a fundamental wonderment about others in the world around me that, , I remember for a little bit.

[00:10:24] Alexandra Hudson: Yeah. And I, and I did focus, I did study. History and political theory for my undergraduate degree. , and yet I, I remember graduating, and starting classes in London and kind of being mad at my very liberal arts degree and the humanities. ’cause I’m like, I don’t know anything about the world.

[00:10:40] Alexandra Hudson: I don’t know about international financial systems. . , and I remember being frustrated. You know, why? Why did my education not prepare me for so many important things in in the world?

[00:10:51] Alexandra Hudson: And I realized that that is like the virtue of the kind of education my parents gave me and the education I got at, at in college was that no education. Whether you are [00:11:00] in in finance or accounting or in history or philosophy, like any end of the spectrum is gonna teach you everything you need to know about life.

[00:11:07] Alexandra Hudson: . A good education will give you the basics to give you the capacity to keep knowing and keep learning , and keep growing. And so I, I will not say that I’m an expert , in markets or, you know, financial tools or anything like that, enough to be sufficiently conversant with, with you , on those items.

[00:11:24] Jonathan DeYoe: . So I, let’s, let’s get into the book a little bit. , what is the problem that civility solves? Like what are we, what is the issue that we’re facing?

[00:11:31] Alexandra Hudson: The problem that civility solves is, again, this tricky thing called life together with others. We live in a historically, , what feels like a historically divided time where, , it’s not just national and, international, , there are things like, . , homegrown, terrorism and, , polarization and hyper-partisanship, things that are destabilizing our democratic, , institutions. , and, that is happening not just in America. It’s happening around the world. , [00:12:00] and which is kind of interesting ’cause 2024 was a high watermark for democracy. More people than ever before in history voted, and yet there were these seemingly unprecedented threats to democracy. Like, you know what I just shared with you?

[00:12:11] Alexandra Hudson: That the, the hyper-partisan that are, that are in incapacitating, democratically elected leaders , from peacefully coexisting across difference, literally doing what they exist to do, which is. , serve their constituents, serve their country. ,, that’s on one end of the spectrum. That’s on the, on the national, you know, international level, on the local and personal level.

[00:12:29] Alexandra Hudson: Division is wreaking havoc as well. And this to me is the crisis that is not getting enough attention. It’s the shocking number of. Lifelong friendships or a family relationships that have been ended or severed over politics and political disagreement, that is not how it should be. That is the opposite of the good life that is.

[00:12:52] Alexandra Hudson: A symptom of a society , and a culture. And people who have disordered loves, they are placing politics at [00:13:00] the top of the pyramid when it comes to their order of priorities in life and putting things like family and friendship below. And that’s not how it should be., family and friendship should be the most important thing, and those should be the , safest places to bring our deepest held.

[00:13:13] Alexandra Hudson: , ideas , and opinions to the fore and have those conversations, and they’re not. Instead we’re just cutting people off, ending them, walking away from them. But that, I, I have been on book tour often with my, my two, now three children, 65 cities and five countries over the last year and a half.

[00:13:28] Alexandra Hudson: And that come, that comes up time and time again. Every single conversation, what do I do with this crazy person in my life who I love?

[00:13:38] Alexandra Hudson: And that, that, that is the toll of our division that I think really matters that no one’s talking about.

[00:13:43] Jonathan DeYoe: So you talk about, in, in the book, you talk about in Instrumentalizing

[00:13:46] Jonathan DeYoe: others. Do you think that’s the, that’s the cause of this? You know, we’re, we’re just all trying to get somewhere. So we’re basically using our neighbors to get there.

[00:13:53] Alexandra Hudson: that is a great question. I’m so glad that you [00:14:00] asked, uh, about in Instrumentalizing, , others. , I call my book a humanistic manifesto. I think what we have forgotten as a society is what a gift it is to be human. And we’ve forgotten that in ourselves and in others. And when we insufficiently appreciate the gift of being human in ourselves or others, it makes it easier.

[00:14:21] Alexandra Hudson: To not see them in the fullness and richness of who they are, but just them purely in terms of, of means to our, to our own ends. You know, what can we get from them? And, and I’ll, I’ll, I’ll share this story and I cannot remember the source. Please remind me and I’ll find, I thought it was The Economist also go back in my, , and my archives and find it.

[00:14:40] Alexandra Hudson: But it was about the story, about , a, a social phenomenon , after the financial crisis in 2008. , and I’ll tell you why I’m telling this story, , the logic of the world, the logic of, , of normalcy economic stability is like, is to, is to be good to people who can do things for us , , who are like us, who we like, and [00:15:00] again, like who can repay, repay us, , do things for us in return if we are, we’re kind to them.

[00:15:04] And that is like lay like the logic of the world. The logic of civility is how do we treat people? Who are not like us, who, , who we differ from and who we do not like and who will never be able to repay us. And I love how this story of a social phenomenon after the financial crisis, , illustrates that, , all of a sudden, you know, king makers and people at the , top of the pyramid, the financial and economic world, , , after the financial crisis, it was topple, it was turned upside down.

[00:15:30] Alexandra Hudson: The, the normal hierarchies were no longer at play, and all of a sudden no one knew. Anyone else’s standing anymore. And so people who would previously, , not even consider returning anyone’s phone call, you know, and were rude and derisive to anyone who asked them for something, all of a sudden everyone was nicer to everyone else.

[00:15:51] Alexandra Hudson: It was just like a, a, a widely phenomena where, people in the financial world in New York were just unbelievably [00:16:00] obsequious and gracious and kind. ’cause you never new. Who you might need something from and you never knew, , who might end up on top again once things like settled after this massive shakeup.

[00:16:11] Alexandra Hudson: And, , I’m trying to remember where I read about this, but, , it was such an interesting article about how, when we don’t feel like how need often brings out. Virtuous, a kind of pseudo virtuous side in us where we’re nice because we don’t know. We might think, we might think we need something or inversely when we don’t think we need things from anyone else.

[00:16:31] Alexandra Hudson: We’re not nice. We’re not gracious. We’re not kind. And there

[00:16:35] Jonathan DeYoe: I.

[00:16:35] Jonathan DeYoe: go ahead.

[00:16:36] We don’t need to know the modern article, uh, you know, from last year, two years, or

[00:16:40] Jonathan DeYoe: five years ago. This, this is exactly what Martin Buber talks

[00:16:43] Jonathan DeYoe: about in

[00:16:43] Jonathan DeYoe: I versus Thou. And that it struck me that you, that you basically brought Mar Martin Buber in. I studied philosophy my whole life.

[00:16:49] Jonathan DeYoe: You know, I, you know, I’m mindfulness teacher. This is what I do, it’s what I believe. I love it. but this whole idea of treating others with honor.

[00:16:58] Jonathan DeYoe: Just, you know, [00:17:00] because they’re here, because they are human, because

[00:17:02] Jonathan DeYoe: they’re For their own sake, not for us, is huge. and I don’t think people talk about

[00:17:07] Jonathan DeYoe: it, so I’d love the fact it’s in your book.

[00:17:10] Alexandra Hudson: , it’s so true. Yeah. The logic of the world is to look at others in terms of what they can do for us or what we can

[00:17:16] Alexandra Hudson: get from them. And the logic of civility is that every single human being, regardless of what they’ve done or how crazy their views are on something, Is deserving of a bare minimum of respect just by virtue of our shared moral status.

[00:17:31] Alexandra Hudson: Full stop. And that we are, we are owed that as well, and that that is good for its own sake. And that civility, it does have instrumental goods. It does promote trust and flourishing in a society, and that those are instrumental reasons to be good to others, you know, and not to just be a, a jerk unnecessarily

[00:17:49] Alexandra Hudson: in ways that. Mistrust in the world , and make people wanna give up on this joint project of self-governance or of living well together with others. , so there, there are [00:18:00] instrumental goods, but it, but even without those instrumental goods, it, it is first and foremost good for, for its own sake. Full stop.

[00:18:06] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, think we all know this because. We see the movie where the, you know, wealthy guy drives up in the fast car and, and throws the keys to the valet and says something snippy. And we all bristle at that. We all go, Ugh, that’s gross, right? We all feel icky about it. I’m imagining whoever came to, maybe the guy that drives the car doesn’t go to the theater, so maybe he doesn’t see that.

[00:18:30] Jonathan DeYoe: So doesn’t ever have that effect. But we all know

[00:18:32] Jonathan DeYoe: this, that treating people with value is important.

[00:18:37] Alexandra Hudson: or that guy doesn’t think he’s that guy. Right when he is when he is that guy. there’s an excuse for it, you know, like a business deal just went south or he got in a fight with his wife or there, you know, we’re always quick to self justify

[00:18:49] Alexandra Hudson: and what is it called, the fundamental attribution error, where we always have a reason to, we know our own reasoning and our own, you know, our own excuses inside and out.

[00:18:58] Alexandra Hudson: we know why we are late, why we are a [00:19:00] jerk that day, but when other people are late, when other people are jerks, you know, they’re just jerks. They’re just bad people.

[00:19:05] Jonathan DeYoe: They’re just

[00:19:05] Jonathan DeYoe: bad people. yeah,

[00:19:06] Jonathan DeYoe: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I think that’s part of the definition, but expand the definition. When you talk about civility, what all is included in civility? What is civility?

[00:19:16] Alexandra Hudson: Civility is the art of human flourishing. It is the bare minimum of respect that we are owed and owed to others by virtue of the Imago Dee, by virtue of our shared personhood, our dignity, , our irreducible worth as human beings. Civility, crucially is more than. Just politeness. It’s not just manners, it’s not just knowing which fork to use.

[00:19:39] Alexandra Hudson: , this is a court essential distinction and argument through throughout my book that civility, , is different from, politeness. So politeness, I argue is. It is technique. It’s external stuff. It’s what we do and what we say where civility is like deeper and richer. It’s internal. It’s a disposition of the heart.

[00:19:56] Alexandra Hudson: It’s a way of seeing others as our moral equals worthy of [00:20:00] a bare minimum of respect. , again, just by,, virtue of our shared, , our shared personhood. And I love how the etymology of these two words highlights this distinction. The etymology of politeness comes the Latin pore, which means to smooth or to polish, and that’s what politeness does.

[00:20:15] Alexandra Hudson: It’s external, it’s superficial. , , you know, paper’s over polishes, over differences, , sweeps it under the rug rather than giving us tools to grapple with different head on, , the etymology. Of civility is kiita, which is our, our etymological route for, , citizen civilization, city , and, and civility, as I mentioned.

[00:20:34] Alexandra Hudson: And that is what civility is. It’s the, it’s the duties, the morays, the habits, the conduct character befitting a citizen in the city, which especially the democracy requires. Disagreement. It requires debate, which is not polite. You know, like you hear this conventional wisdom of not talking politics or religion at the dinner table for fear of broaching an area of disagreement.

[00:20:59] Alexandra Hudson: [00:21:00] ’cause heaven forbid, that would ruin a dinner party, right? But no, you can’t live life like that. The goal of life together with others, especially in a democracy, is, is not to never disagree. Disagreement is inherent. And difference is inherent to the life with others. It’s inherent to democracy. It’s about how we disagree.

[00:21:16] Alexandra Hudson: How are we going to, , live with others in a way that doesn’t blow up the whole project, , full stop. , which is what we’re, this is what’s concerning about our current moment. There is very little that is unprecedented. Truly as a student of history, I know that to be the, to be the case.

[00:21:32] Alexandra Hudson: , but, , , that doesn’t mean that there’s nothing to be concerned about. And what we should be concerned about is, . The, the apocalyptic language that we hear a lot of today where people are, are ready to pull the trigger. , they want an excuse to go nuclear.

[00:21:46] Alexandra Hudson: You know, they want an excuse to it. It’s scorched earth. Right. And, and they, and, and this, this, this ties back to why I view my book as a humanistic manifesto. Why are they so eager to go scorched earth on the other side, the people they disagree with, [00:22:00] and, and to just, you know. There’s reconciliation is not the goal, you know, , because they tell these stories that the other side is mon as a monster.

[00:22:09] Alexandra Hudson: You know, they’re evil, they’re willfully bad. They’re not just misinformed. They are morally corrupt and, , unsalvageable and we can’t do life with them. And you don’t, you know, it’s, it’s easy to justify going nuclear and doing and doing it, saying horrible things with people who are, are evil and bad and existential threats to you.

[00:22:28] Jonathan DeYoe: , it’s so true. I see this every day. I’m in, I’m in Berkeley, California. Like I see this every day. , in conversations. I think maybe one of the benefits I’ve had is, is the person that I disagree the most with, I. He’s also the person who I love the most. So I haven’t been able to just close the door on them.

[00:22:44] Jonathan DeYoe: And my father is very specific in his political beliefs. I, I have almost the opposite, political beliefs, so we have to talk it through. And I adore my father. I put him on a pedestal, like I love him to death. So I, and I know he’s [00:23:00] not stupid. I know that he has best intentions. I know his heart,

[00:23:04] Jonathan DeYoe: I wonder if the fact that we’re saying goodbye to those friends and we’re, we’re, is it, is it because we’re not comfortable being tested or is it just e it makes life easier? Like, why is it it’s so easy for us to step away from those people we care about who might challenge these

[00:23:18] Alexandra Hudson: If it is, because we think it’s easier what we, we’ve told ourself that story and accepted that it’s a lie. Like it is a lie. That life is easier just cutting off people. We love who we differ from rather than figuring it out with them. Like, or, or, or even just.

[00:23:37] Alexandra Hudson: Structuring a relationship so as to not have to talk about the controversial topic or talk about the difference, , because the human heart, I believe, longs for wholeness, it longs for reconciliation. It longs , for relationship. And I think so many people are walking around content with like an inferior.

[00:23:58] Alexandra Hudson: Quality of life [00:24:00] because they are hobbled, they are deeply hurt and grieving. ’cause there’s, they just have these open wounds from these relationships. They’ve just like, either they’ve been cut off and that’s painful or they’re doing, they’re the one doing the cutoff, cutting off. ’cause they feel like they have to, they feel some obligation to some higher moral principle of justice and purity that they can’t be associated with someone who thinks, or V or you know, has voted for that person.

[00:24:21] Alexandra Hudson: And that’s. That is again, not the good life. I’ll come back to that over and over again. That’s not how it has to be. That’s not how it should be. That’s why, you know, as I mentioned this, the toll of our crisis of polarization that no one’s talking about is that toll, that, that, that

[00:24:36] Alexandra Hudson: personal toll that, that we are walking around hobbled and savaged emotionally and psychologically, .

[00:24:41] Alexandra Hudson: We’re self imposing these, suffering on us. And so why, why are we doing this though? That was your question. Why is that? I think far too many people have elevated politics to a level of religion, to a

[00:24:54] Alexandra Hudson: level of idolatry.

[00:24:55] Alexandra Hudson: That, and I think it’s, there’s a reason for it. There’s a, , there’s a very unique reason in our, in our moment in [00:25:00] time that we are seeing this, . , things like faith, family, and community. These have been documented to be on the decline in recent decades and the rise of religious nuns.

[00:25:08] Alexandra Hudson: People are not going to church and they have no religion at all. You know? We’re bowling alone, you know, civil society is disintegrated and collapsing. , all of these different phenomenon are conflating and that, and that people, . We’re meaning-making machines. , we want a sense of identity.

[00:25:21] Alexandra Hudson: We want a sense of self and a sense of meaning. And so as these things can no longer be relied on, we’re not turning to them anymore. We’re turning to politics. We’re turning to political figures, we’re turning to political policies and issues.

[00:25:33] Alexandra Hudson: And there are three symptoms of this crisis, of misplaced meaning that I see.

[00:25:38] Alexandra Hudson: , one is , the way in which , the lizard brain is so readily activated. with people, , that people just go from zero to 60, , when the mere mention of their sacred cow issue is, is broached with insufficient deference, you know, or, or maybe you agree with them, but you don’t have the same zeal.

[00:25:59] Alexandra Hudson: You know, it’s not [00:26:00] the only thing you wanna talk about. And people, people will write you off as a sellout, you know, , so lizard brain activated, people go into fight or flight if you disagree with them, or heaven forbid, you know, don’t have the same priorities as them. . And just like an, an, an ordinate response to what go, what goes from a ca a casual conversation becomes existential, becomes a life or death.

[00:26:19] Alexandra Hudson: Like they’re that they’re, they go into fight or flight. Another symptom of the crisis of misplaced meaning is the ubiquity of politics. There is very little that is unprecedented, but that this is something that is uniquely unprecedented just because our media culture has never been so. , readily available and a part of everyone’s life.

[00:26:36] Alexandra Hudson: Day in, day out, moment by moment, we are assaulted, inundated with political content. And it’s not just,, when we go to these forums like Facebook or Twitter or when we, tune into, news. ’cause I do think we. Are on those platforms too often, but it’s like it’s coming to us, it’s coming into these previously apolitical zones like sports, like [00:27:00] school, like where we live, like where we grocery shop, these previously apolitical areas and venues of life now have a political dimension to them, and that is new.

[00:27:08] Alexandra Hudson: And that is harmful.

[00:27:10] Alexandra Hudson: Um, we are overdoing politics, we’re overdoing democracy, and we’re undermining it as a result. We’re not given a break that all of this works to make it feel as if politics is the most important thing when it’s not. You know, there’s, the

[00:27:24] Alexandra Hudson: people are, have, have, are accepting this, this, This worldview, this understanding that politics is the most important thing and, and they’re allowing it to displace French. And that is the third symptom of this crisis, of, of misplaced meaning that we’ve already alluded to several times now, the shocking and tragic number of people who have. Ended relationships, lifelong friendships, cut off family members because of political difference.

[00:27:46] Alexandra Hudson: That, that to me is, , a tragic symptom of this crisis of misplacement where people are elevating politics, the level of a religion of idolatry, of like a, a totalizing belief system, almost like a cult, you know, that anyone outside of that [00:28:00] is, is, is evil, harmful, bad, you know, that is toxic to our

[00:28:04] Alexandra Hudson: souls and to democracy and to our, our free and flourishing society.

[00:28:09] Jonathan DeYoe: Our friendships, our relationships with anybody for it’s toxic to everything for sure. , yeah., could not agree more. And there’s nowhere to hide. Like you, you have to, you have to purposefully shut stuff

[00:28:18] Alexandra Hudson: You, you do create these OACs. Have our home,

[00:28:20] Alexandra Hudson: have our lives. We have to. You have to be intentional about it. If you’re not intentional, the default today is you are saturated, you’re inundated by it. You’re absolutely right.

[00:28:30] Jonathan DeYoe: Yep. That actually, , gets me to this, the something I ask everybody I want, I want you to simplify this for us. So, what’s one thing a listener can do today that would lead to their becoming more civil and hopefully lead to a more civil society?

[00:28:43] Alexandra Hudson: Ooh, that’s a great

[00:28:44] Alexandra Hudson: question. I love this line. , curiosity. Breeds curiosity. I, I take that insight from, I love this book. It’s called How to Live on 24 Hours a Day. , and it’s about, it was written, , by a, , a gentleman named Arnold [00:29:00] Bennett in like the 1920s in England. And it was like, as it was, there was a social and cultural shift where people were moving out of industrial jobs and into white collar office jobs and.

[00:29:11] Alexandra Hudson: , and people, had disposable income and free time, like leisure time in a way that they didn’t have before. , it’s on lifelong learning and auto didactic and how to, how to make the most out of our free time and leisure time.

[00:29:22] Alexandra Hudson: , what books to buy, where to read, where to start. And he, he has this great line. He says, nothing in life is humdrum. And I love that. ’cause it’s like, you know, it’s, it’s really easy to walk into a situation and, and or even an encounter with a person and say, oh, this is boring. You know, there’s nothing that they can teach me.

[00:29:39] Alexandra Hudson: But every person and every circumstance, there is a lesson to be learned. There’s, there’s an insight to be derived that =we can learn from every single encounter we have with, with another human being. Nothing in life is humdrum. So just having a measure of curiosity and, and, and, and that curiosity breeds.

[00:29:56] Alexandra Hudson: Curiosity, like wonder breeds wonder. It’s [00:30:00] iterative. So if you, you know, if you walk into a, an encounter with someone and think like, oh, this is boring, and like, there’s nothing to be, you know, I’m, I’m stuck at dinner with a, a Covid denier or, you know, a Trump supporter and I, heaven forbid, you know, and, and, start asking one question earnestly.

[00:30:17] Alexandra Hudson: An open-ended question, not a gotcha question, not like a loaded charged question where you have a predetermined answer in mind. Um, or ask a question. Better yet, ask a question on something totally apolitical like and recognize, like, I think curiosity requires having the humility to recognize that people are infinitely complex and know we all come to our views about world for many different reasons.

[00:30:44] Alexandra Hudson: And. If we don’t wanna be centralized by one aspect of who we are, whether it’s our geography or our political beliefs, you know, our, our voting record, then we should be very loathed to do that to someone else. And, and what does it look like to engage with others in a way that [00:31:00] yearns to see them in the fullness of who they are and not unnecessarily reduce them?

[00:31:05] Alexandra Hudson: These cheapened labels that the world wants to, wants us to assign our values to and assign others value to.

[00:31:13] Jonathan DeYoe: Agrees.

[00:31:14] Jonathan DeYoe: He

[00:31:14] Jonathan DeYoe: says, he says, mom is spot on. Uh, that’s something that a listener can do and activate what is something that. Doing that they should stop doing that would lead to a more civil

[00:31:25] Alexandra Hudson: Oh, get off social media, get off, get off. Get off the internet

[00:31:30] Alexandra Hudson: entirely.

[00:31:30] Jonathan DeYoe: Totally knew.

[00:31:32] Alexandra Hudson: I am a huge fan of retreats. I, I do them quarterly. I, I have a digital fast. 24 to 48 hours. I go into the woods and I. I leave my phone in the glove compartment and I just walk and I think, and I write, I journal and I pray, and I sleep a lot.

[00:31:50] Alexandra Hudson: Like we have no idea how exhausted we are. Not just physically, but emotionally, psychologically, being connected digitally. , it’s a constant [00:32:00] sap on our energy and the soul repairs itself when it’s digitally disconnected and when we’re given a chance to be silent and still like it’s easy to feel restless.

[00:32:08] Alexandra Hudson: Like I like to journal and just I’ll, I’ll write until I have nothing else to say and then I’ll sleep, and then I’ll walk and then I’ll do it all over again. . I come away from these retreats. With this indescribable lightness, like just my soul feels levitating.

[00:32:22] Alexandra Hudson: I just feel this beautiful detachment from the, the things I went into retreat worried about. They just matter less when I’ve taken my eyes off of them and onto bigger and more beautiful things like, you know, staring , at the stars at night and contemplating infinity and the mysteries of the galaxy.

[00:32:38] Alexandra Hudson: It might sound trite, but it’s, it’s miraculous. It is unspeakably. Okay, good. And then the challenge is once, once you’ve come back into the world, reintegrated, if you will, after retreat, how do you keep that lightness, that spirit of retreat and that that spirit of detachment that is so healthy?

[00:32:55] Alexandra Hudson: ,, and there are rituals I have in place to try and keep that, , you know, like getting up [00:33:00] early and having silence and stillness , and prayer and journaling and solitude before my kids wake up. And it’s just like a full frontal assault. All day. Joy-filled mind you. But it’s still relentless.

[00:33:10] Alexandra Hudson: , like I find the days where I don’t have those early mornings of stillness and solitude to be, you know, to start my day on my terms and I wake up with the kids, it’s just frenetic, it’s chaos. Like to my soul, to my kids, like, it’s just like not, not as, not remotely as, as and, and peaceful. , so yeah, off.

[00:33:27] Alexandra Hudson: Doing a retreat, a digital detox, 24 to 48 hours going to the woods, and then, , and then just making it a practice to be on social media less. yeah, but I, I’d say the retreat, if I had to choose between them, like do the retreat and then, you know, I feel like once you just go cold Turkey like that, it makes the desire, the impulse,

[00:33:45] Alexandra Hudson: it, it breaks, you know?

[00:33:47] Alexandra Hudson: It, it,

[00:33:48] Alexandra Hudson: yeah. Exactly.

[00:33:49] Jonathan DeYoe: Break the habit. Yep. Yep. , I noticed that if I, if I’m having, like this has probably happened four or five times, if I’m having a really bad week, I then reference, I go, huh. For some reason, my [00:34:00] phone is now next to my bed, but if I just unplug the phone and put it in my office and I don’t have it in the morning when I wake up, my week gets

[00:34:06] Jonathan DeYoe: better, my mood gets better, everything gets better.

[00:34:08] Jonathan DeYoe: Just get off of, get off of the

[00:34:10] Jonathan DeYoe: constant scrolling, the doom, scrolling, the looking, the how is my email? How, just stop

[00:34:15] Jonathan DeYoe: it. Like, just stop and so much

[00:34:16] Jonathan DeYoe: better. And then get up every morning with quiet, like have a meditation mind, mindfulness, whatever. Whatever it is. getting real close to an end here. I, I have, I have, uh, one more personal

[00:34:25] Jonathan DeYoe: question

[00:34:25] Jonathan DeYoe: then I’ll ask you to tell people how to find you.

[00:34:27] Jonathan DeYoe: what Was the last thing you changed your mind about?

[00:34:32] Alexandra Hudson: great question.

[00:34:33] Alexandra Hudson: I have recently changed my mind about, how important my work is. I used to feel this real tension between being out the world doing stuff. I felt this like urgency, this like. The world needs my work and I, it was really hard , to pile up my kids and get on airplanes and like doing all these things and I, always lived in this tension where I’m like, oh, am I doing, I could always do more [00:35:00] work. , I like to think like some vocations are fixed. It’s like you show up, you put on your time, you go home, you know, you’re on the clock. You’re off the clock. It’s like very black and white. There’s fixed and there’s gaseous vocations that you could always do more. If you have a budget. The project will fill the budget. Anyway, that’s, that is my vocation. There’s always more to do. There’s always one more email to send, always one more, you know, podcast to go on.

[00:35:22] Alexandra Hudson: , always another project I could pick up. , and I never feel like I’ve done enough, say. Same with parenting. I can always, I feel like I’ve never, I’m, I’m never enriching my kids enough. It can always be more time. And, and that’s been a really hard place to dwell and that tension. I think it’s a combination of welcoming our third child into the world as well as having an au pair that was just like a very bad fit for our family.

[00:35:45] Alexandra Hudson: It was like a really bad experience that like, I was like, what am I doing? Like trying to abdicate any moment of time with my kids. , any moment at all. Like, Jonathan, I’m sure you thought it was insane when I told you when we first got on this call, like, I’m like, hi, I’m Lexi. I have no childcare. Like this is my son, you know, and [00:36:00] my other two might come at at any minute and it’s like.

[00:36:02] Alexandra Hudson: I just, I don’t wanna miss a moment of it. Like, this is such a profound privilege to be a parent. And I just, for miraculously, that tension like resolved, like I don’t feel this deep ambition and like abiding, you know, desire to be constantly doing more and work. I feel like I’m a little bit unambitious. I have creative projects, but I don’t, they’re not like these, you know, go, go go metrics that I feel like I have to achieve like I have in the past.

[00:36:29] Alexandra Hudson: And I just feel utterly at peace. being with my kids more, and even if it’s a little messy, like, you know, bash being on my lap while we’re having this conversation, like it would be cleaner to have him hidden in a room with childcare, you know? But like, I, I just, and I know deeply that this is the most important work we’ll ever do.

[00:36:47] Alexandra Hudson: Creating good humans is the best thing I’ll ever do to make the world a better place. I wrote a book that I hope makes the world a better and more gentle place, but I know. That this is the most noble and profound and joyful thing I’ll ever do is, is being with with my kids.[00:37:00]

[00:37:00] Jonathan DeYoe: Being on the other end of that, mine are again, 20.

[00:37:03] Jonathan DeYoe: I wish I would’ve made that decision. I,

[00:37:05] Alexandra Hudson: Aw,

[00:37:06] Jonathan DeYoe: I wish I felt good about that. So you should feel very proud of that, of that decision. You should feel very good about that choice and that, realization. I also suffer from that. I, I can always do more. you know, work. Yeah. Always, always, always, always. And, and I am gonna take that as a lesson personally. So I wanna say thank you for that. That’s really, really, really critically important.

[00:37:24] Jonathan DeYoe: Um, finally, how do people find you and bash? Like, where do we find you? Where do we get the book?

[00:37:29] Alexandra Hudson: Come visit us in the Midwest, come porch with us. We didn’t even get a chance to talk about porting, but, uh, it’s a story to tell in chapter, chapter five of my book. , yeah, I, I, you can find me, , at, civic renaissance.com is my newsletter and publication it’s comprised of 50,000 intellectually curious people from across the world. Um, and then I’m on all the social media, but come to civic renaissance and, , yeah, thanks again for, how did you find me? You said, where can people find you? But I’m

[00:37:54] Alexandra Hudson: curious, where did you find me?

[00:37:56] Jonathan DeYoe: the book I, I find I read all kinds of blogs and stuff and I found the book and I [00:38:00] wanted to

[00:38:00] Alexandra Hudson: How did you find the book? Do you don’t remember?

[00:38:03] Jonathan DeYoe: I don’t remember where I first saw it, but I, I read, I, I probably subscribed to like 30 different, 40 different

[00:38:07] Jonathan DeYoe: blogs and read ’em every single day. So, so I, one of ’em said, check out this book. And I was like, yeah, I’m gonna check out this

[00:38:12] Jonathan DeYoe: book.

[00:38:12] Jonathan DeYoe: And civility is like, civility is something that I believe

[00:38:16] Jonathan DeYoe: in. Like, I, I, I love it. I love what you’re saying and I hope people adopt it more ’cause we need it.

[00:38:21] Jonathan DeYoe: , thank you for being on the podcast. and, uh, we’ll give, we’ll give bash a chance to, to pull it together.

[00:38:27] Alexandra Hudson: Thank you for having me. Great to meet you and maybe see you in Northern California in, uh, in a few

[00:38:32] Outro: Thanks for listening. Full show notes for each episode, which includes a summary, key takeaways, quotes, and any resources mentioned are available at Mindful Money. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. And if you’re enjoying the content and getting value from these episodes, please leave us a rating and review [00:39:00] ratethispodcast.com/mindfulmoney. We’ll be sure to read those out on future episodes.