133: Brian Herriot – The Time Freedom Equation: Unlocking the Secret to Doing More of What You Love

[00:00:00] Brian Herriot: In 2020 I picked up that, uh, Morgan Housel book, Psychology of Money and chapter seven, right at the beginning it said, you know, the real true freedom is the freedom to wake up every day and decide what you wanna do.

[00:00:12] Brian Herriot: And I thought, oh my God, that is what I want. And then from that point on, like those next three years, I really got to work kind of figuring out how I wanted to structure my life in order to have that freedom of time.

[00:00:25] Intro: Do you think money takes up more life space than it should? On this show, we discuss with and share stories from artists, authors, entrepreneurs, and advisors about how they mindfully minimize the time and energy spent thinking about money. Join your host, Jonathan DeYoe, and learn how to put money in its place and get more out of life.

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[00:00:59] Jonathan DeYoe: Hey, welcome [00:01:00] back on this episode of The Mindful Money Podcast. I’m chatting with Brian Harriot. Brian’s a financial coach and the founder of Choosy Consultant. He helps, , mid-career professionals escape the corporate grind. His framework for personal growth and financial success all start with taking back control of our only truly limited resource time. Brian’s a lifelong management consultant. He’s worked for Accenture Point B. He started his own firm about seven years ago. Most importantly, for today’s conversation, he spends. And I, we will get into this. He spends months at a time away from work. So with time to reflect and wander, he believes he’s unlocked the secret to living a rich and meaningful life.

[00:01:40] Jonathan DeYoe: And that’s a secret I wanna learn. So I wanted to hand out on the podcast for two reasons. One, I am that mid-career professional who loves the idea of more time. And two, because he believes everyone should define what success means to them. with character over resume and I wanna talk about that as well.

[00:01:58] Jonathan DeYoe: So, Brian, welcome to the Mindful money [00:02:00] Podcast.

[00:02:01] Brian Herriot: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:02:02] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m excited for the conversation. First, where do you, uh, call home and where are you

[00:02:06] Jonathan DeYoe: connecting from?

[00:02:08] Brian Herriot: Uh, I call home, uh, the Bay Area in California. I live on the. Island of Alameda, which is just off Oakland. And, , my family of, , one wife, one son, uh, live here for nine months outta the year. And then we spend our summer months in the north woods of Wisconsin on a, a lakeside cabin that we, , we’re fortunate enough to buy many years ago, uh, up there.

[00:02:33] Jonathan DeYoe: Do you have wifi or is it totally, is it

[00:02:35] Jonathan DeYoe: silent?

[00:02:36] Brian Herriot: Well, we do have wifi, , and it is. For the most part, reliable, except for when we tried to record this podcast about two months ago when I was there. And, , that does happen every now and then. But, uh, yes, it’s, it’s good

[00:02:49] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. So did, did you grow up in the Bay Area

[00:02:52] Jonathan DeYoe: or

[00:02:52] Jonathan DeYoe: Wisconsin? I guess.

[00:02:53] Brian Herriot: I grew up in Wisconsin, so, , , our connection to the Northwoods of Wisconsin is that my grandparents had a cabin up there and I’ve been [00:03:00] going up there ever since I can remember, , unfortunately they sold their cabin when I was in college because nobody was coming up anymore, and I was obviously not in a position to.

[00:03:09] Brian Herriot: Purchased a cabin then. But just then I met my girlfriend, who is now my wife, who also lived up there. So I moved a couple lakes over and never stopped visiting up there. , soon we bought our second home before our first, because, you know, to buy a home in California is a little expensive. , so we started with a kind of a squirrel infested cabin and kind of worked things backwards.

[00:03:32] Brian Herriot: We’ve done things a little bit backwards in our lives that way.

[00:03:36] Jonathan DeYoe: , that actually leads to a, a good question. Is there, not that there’s a reason for it, but what did you learn growing up in Wisconsin about money and entrepreneurship?

[00:03:43] Brian Herriot: that’s a good question. I have not been asked that before. I would say what I learned was obviously direct. It’s Lee from my parents, , who were, you know, traditional Midwest, hardworking people. My mom was a nurse turned realtor. , my dad, uh, worked [00:04:00] for an appliance manufacturer as a marketing manager.

[00:04:02] Brian Herriot: And the lessons that we learned was were work hard, , save your money, kind of the traditional kind of money management mindset. I did not grow up in, in a family of entrepreneurs, although that is what I do now. Um, I actually even have thought about this recently where I did mow lawns growing up and my dad said, oh, well, if you ever wanted to make that into a business, I’d help you figure that out.

[00:04:29] Brian Herriot: But for some reason I said, no, I’m just gonna play baseball or something like that. So I, I, I had an opportunity to do it, , but I, but I never did, interestingly enough. So, uh, traditional, um, save your money. Invested 401k kind of

[00:04:44] Jonathan DeYoe: But interesting you, you mowed lawns but never turned it into a business. I mean, isn’t it a business if

[00:04:48] Jonathan DeYoe: you mowed lawns?

[00:04:50] Brian Herriot: I guess I used our family lawnmower and took it around to three neighbors and I collected the money. I don’t even think I paid for the gas I got, maybe it [00:05:00] was a good business ’cause I didn’t have any expenses. It was just my time. But my dad, he asked me, no, we could go in and I’d buy you a trailer and, you know, we could make it bigger.

[00:05:10] Brian Herriot: And I’m, I think that’s great that he, because he was not. He was not that, , back then, you know, he had a corporate job. , although interestingly enough, he had the entrepreneurial bug too, and later in life actually started a, a concrete, , painting and, and concrete countertop business later in life, which is, which is pretty cool.

[00:05:28] Brian Herriot: So maybe he was trying to, you know, get ahead on that and, and, and offering that suggestion to me as a kid.

[00:05:35] Jonathan DeYoe: I love it. I, I love just a, just a little bit of, uh, entrepreneurship, a little bit of advice growing up. It’s important. So , I wanna go back to you. You said something, your mom was a nurse and became a real estate realtor, a real estate agent. How old were you when that happened? And, and was it, was that financially driven or was it like tired of

[00:05:51] Jonathan DeYoe: dealing with, you know, sick people?

[00:05:53] Brian Herriot: Good question. Yeah. , that happened when I was, I, I think I was about eight or nine or maybe 10 years old at the time, [00:06:00] and it was. , Not financially driven. I think it was actually kind of in line with what we, you know, wanna talk about here at some point today. But time, you know, she did not like having to work every other Christmas and have to work, you know, which, which.

[00:06:16] Brian Herriot: I’ve learned it happens, , when you know you have to be at the, you know, the hospital needs to run on all days, and that got to be too much for her. And so not as though she didn’t wanna work, because as a realtor, she was also working at odd hours of the day. But at least she could control, she could control, , if she had to work on Christmas or Thanksgiving or whatever the holiday happened to be.

[00:06:36] Jonathan DeYoe: . Do you think that that informs. Experience informs sort of the conversation around the importance of time today. Is that like the earliest

[00:06:45] Jonathan DeYoe: inkling.

[00:06:46] Brian Herriot: , I would say yes, , certainly because when I would go up north up, we call it up north to visit my grandparents’ cabin. It was my dream. , Back when I was a [00:07:00] kid, I wanted to be a teacher because they had summers off and it, like my whole life has been organized around this way of getting summers off.

[00:07:09] Brian Herriot: I’ve realized all the way back to then. , and I actually was a teacher for a couple of years, I did Teach for America, um, earlier in my career. It is so hard. The work is so hard and the pay is so poor. I, I have all the respect in the world for teachers, , but I couldn’t do it. , and so I had to kind of figure out a different way to eventually get the summers off, uh, situation that I desired for so many years.

[00:07:33] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. And it sounds like you did it. Uh, can you give us like a thumbnail sketch of your career arc? Like what did you do to get here? What inspired you to start the choosy

[00:07:41] Jonathan DeYoe: consultant?

[00:07:43] Brian Herriot: Yeah, I, I was a, um, engineer, uh, industrial engineer outta school, and then, , was, you know, lifelong management consultant. So I did, , consulting for a long time. flew on planes, worked long hours, , did that whole thing. I took, , [00:08:00] my first non-con consulting job at UCSF Health, , back in 2012. And in that first year,, you know, you have these life inflection points.

[00:08:09] Brian Herriot: , , it happened to be on, on one of my bus rides into the city that day. I. Saw the news that Marissa Mayer had been named the CEO of Yahoo, and she was 35, the same age I was. And when I looked her up, she was from a rural city in Wisconsin just like me. And that one, like, you know, many people were way more successful than me, but for some reason, because it was, it was, she was so much similar to me.

[00:08:33] Brian Herriot: That one like really hit me hard. Like, what am I doing here? You know? ., I hadn’t really thought about what I wanted. I guess it came down to it. And so I decided I’m gonna go for it. And I worked really hard the next couple of years to try to move, you know, all the way up. But actually what happened was right around when I turned 40, I was demoted back down from a director down to a manager.

[00:08:52] Brian Herriot: So it was exactly the opposite of what I wanted while I was watching all this stuff happen with Marissa Mayor. so I kind of, you [00:09:00] know, still worked, still did what I needed to do. And then in 2020 I I. picked up that, uh, Morgan Housel book, psychology of Money and chapter seven, right at the beginning it said, you know, the real true freedom is the freedom to wake up every day and decide what you wanna do.

[00:09:17] Brian Herriot: And I thought, oh my God, that is, that is what I want. It is not that I wanna be a CEO of UCSF health or whatever, or Yahoo. And that kind of like sh. So I had that like up, down, up. And then from that point on, like those next three years, I really got to work kind of figuring out how I wanted to structure my life, , and work, um, in order to have that freedom of time.

[00:09:45] Brian Herriot: , I call it lifestyle freedom, , to do what you want and, . That, that ultimately led me to the, the first summer that I took off was 2023. , so this is still relatively new to me, but it was the, the first I’d been working in Wisconsin over the summers [00:10:00] since Covid hit, because we had that flexibility.

[00:10:02] Brian Herriot: , but then, yeah, 2023 was the first summer We did a month, a month in Portugal, two months at our cabin. And then, , this summer as well, I didn’t work either, so, uh, and I like it, but I also like coming back to

[00:10:15] Jonathan DeYoe: , I have a really close friend of mine who I’ve, who I’ve also had on the podcast, Gary Ray, um, who, who runs a small retail store, , but he’s put processes in place, so I, I make way more money than he does. He has way more time, like six months away. You know, he can, he can check email and do a few ordering things when he is, you know, in the, in the camper in South America.

[00:10:38] Jonathan DeYoe: And he’s taken six months trips through South America with his son. And I’ve never been able to do that kind of stuff. So there’s something about this time freedom or the ability, the

[00:10:47] Jonathan DeYoe: ability to set up your life to live it not work. , you know, you gotta work, everyone’s gotta earn some money. But I, there’s something about how, how’d you stumble upon this as the. As the thing, as the [00:11:00] goal.

[00:11:00] Brian Herriot: I just really like spending time at the lake. I mean, that’s the simple sim simplistic answer. , I also just, I.

[00:11:09] Brian Herriot: I don’t know. Like I, I went through all the stages that a lot of people go through, I think, where you kind of hit midlife and you go, okay, I’ve saved a lot. Let’s go run the numbers. And then you, then you see that even though you’ve saved a lot, you still have a long way to go if you really want true financial freedom.

[00:11:27] Brian Herriot: , so in my mind, financial freedom is that you do not have to work. And that’s what I wanted initially, right? I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna work. But it was still gonna take me 5, 7, 9, 10 or more years, , you know, enabled to do that, but I just didn’t wanna wait. And I don’t actually rem, I’m sure I, it must have been a podcast or something where I first kind of heard the, the idea where it was, you know, why don’t you actually just leverage what savings you already have to kind of give yourself a buffer?

[00:11:58] Brian Herriot: And then that means you actually [00:12:00] don’t have to work a hundred percent of the year. And you can kind of figure out if you wanna work part-time, or if you wanna work part of the year or figure it out how it, you know, how it works in your life. And kind of put those two pieces together so you have. You know, some financial freedom and some professional freedom and kind of together, it makes up the true lifestyle freedom.

[00:12:21] Jonathan DeYoe: I guess there’s a, a certain group of people that this works for, and I, , I wanna talk about thinking about this as just a big, as a huge privilege. Like, I think, I think I could arrange my life in this way. , I have a college degree.

[00:12:32] Jonathan DeYoe: I went to grad school. I’ve been in industry for 25, 30 years. Like, you know, I, I, I deeply white collar, like, right? , but there’s a whole, I don’t know, 60% of the population that don’t have that access or don’t have that, , ability is. Are you just speaking to those people that have, you know, run their own shows, maybe executives, maybe, and, and could, or are you trying to inspire masses to do more of this kind of

[00:12:58] Jonathan DeYoe: time thinking?

[00:12:59] Brian Herriot: [00:13:00] I am trying to move towards the masses. So the people that I work with are, like you described, right? They have developed a set of skills, have a network, could turn that into consulting or coaching, right? That’s the, like the, that’s, that is my niche, but I think it can work broader and like I. I heard a story of somebody who, you know, , they were a ski instructor so that they, you know, had to work through in the winter, but they didn’t wanna work in the summer or they had a lawn care business, but, you know, didn’t need to work in the winter.

[00:13:32] Brian Herriot: So, You know, if you don’t spend that much, you don’t have to make that much either. So , I don’t necessarily think it’s just reserved for the people who can make a ton of money. I think it,

[00:13:45] Brian Herriot: I do think though, like you said, I. That people don’t have a chance to think about what it could be like if they’re kind of working day-to-day, you know, getting, you know, money on the table.

[00:13:56] Brian Herriot: So , I don’t think it’s reserved for white collar or, I do [00:14:00] think service industry is probably easier ’cause you can kind of, you know, change how you run your business to do intensives and things like that. Although, . Yeah, this is not a very good answer to your question, but, I want it to be available to more people, right?

[00:14:14] Brian Herriot: And so I’m, I’m actually trying to meet more people like that. I’m working on a book to, with the goal of, you know, sharing the same stuff that I have. But, you know, if you can’t work with me, one-on-one, how could you read about it and try to apply it in your life, you know, more broadly? And in order to do that, I need to make sure that I’m sharing it in a way that is more applicable to different types of, uh, Profession professional.

[00:14:36] Jonathan DeYoe: I assume you read, , broadly and it’s like success literature and

[00:14:40] Jonathan DeYoe: listen to podcasts and so as do I, um, there’s something that I see that’s very universal across blogs and podcasts in the entire professional world. That’s. The path to success begins with sort of a real deep understanding of what’s important to you. And I think what you talk about is some people that are, [00:15:00] working really hard to put food on the table, never have a chance to reflect

[00:15:05] Jonathan DeYoe: and just to sit back and say, what do I want? I think that anyone can move in the direction, but they gotta start with that reflection. So it’s really important, I think, um, to like, to lead with that for people. Uh, that’s why I like, I like the fact that you’re, you’re, you’re

[00:15:18] Jonathan DeYoe: moving in that direction.

[00:15:19] Brian Herriot: Maybe it’s because we have one child, you know, like I also think about our friends who had, you know, like three kids and they were all between the ages of one and four. Like we call ’em the dark ears. You can’t do anything.

[00:15:32] Brian Herriot: Except for just deal with the situation that you’re in. So, yeah, it comes with the, the, the luxury and the benefit is the ability to have a little time that you can have that reflection on trying to understand what’s important to you. For sure.

[00:15:44] Jonathan DeYoe: So important. ,

[00:15:44] Jonathan DeYoe: how do you work in this idea of building character? Over resumes.

[00:15:49] Brian Herriot: so this one, this was a, I, uh, I’m gonna forget the name of the author. He’s a newspaper columnist. Who? David Brooks.

[00:15:57] Brian Herriot: Yeah. The David Brooks book on, on [00:16:00] character versus, , resume traits. I loved it and

[00:16:06] Brian Herriot: My first exposure to this was really as a consultant when I was with point B.

[00:16:11] Brian Herriot: So point B at the time had an incredible culture of service, leadership, leadership from the backseat of the car kind of situation. , doing a great job at not taking any credit for it, you know, letting , the client take all the accolades for the work. And I, I don’t know if it was my Midwestern.

[00:16:32] Brian Herriot: The upbringing or what, but that just really resonated with me. I just love that. and also that was in my, you know, my early thirties real, like formative time for me professionally and that, that really stuck with me. , and then, you know, I had a brief. A brief moment of going, wait a second, I need to climb myself up to the C level of a business until I, it dawned on me like, whoa, wait, wait.

[00:16:58] Brian Herriot: I was never like that in the first place. [00:17:00] And that’s probably why I couldn’t do it. ’cause I wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t a fit for me. , but that, I think that’s originally how that, , came to be for me. ,

[00:17:08] Jonathan DeYoe: so you’ve referenced two. David Brooks. I read all three of his, like his character and then how to get to know somebody. There’s,

[00:17:13] Jonathan DeYoe: they’re they’re fantastic books. Love them all. , and Morgan Housel in terms of financial writers, I, I think he’s like number one, like he’s my favorite person to read.

[00:17:22] Jonathan DeYoe: I read him like almost

[00:17:25] Jonathan DeYoe: weekly. I see his stuff and it’s just,

[00:17:27] Jonathan DeYoe: it’s, yeah, he’s great.

[00:17:28] Brian Herriot: it’s very accessible. It’s short, it’s quick. And also he presents things that you kind of know, but you didn’t really realize. Oh yeah, that is right. That is true. You

[00:17:37] Jonathan DeYoe: And he brings in

[00:17:38] Jonathan DeYoe: some history, like he brings in some

[00:17:40] Jonathan DeYoe: 1938. This,

[00:17:41] Jonathan DeYoe: you’re like,

[00:17:41] Brian Herriot: He is well

[00:17:42] Jonathan DeYoe: cool.

[00:17:42] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah.

[00:17:42] Jonathan DeYoe: Very well read. So I, I’m, I’m just over 50 and I know that you talk a little bit about the, um. , the smile curve, right? So I, I feel like I’m coming off kind of a difficult period. Like my kids are both my one just went to college.

[00:17:55] Jonathan DeYoe: The other one’s gonna be outta the house in a year and a half. And I think you call this the

[00:17:59] Jonathan DeYoe: what, [00:18:00] why,

[00:18:00] Jonathan DeYoe: what, why Smile curve. Can you explain that for us? This

[00:18:03] Jonathan DeYoe: period of

[00:18:03] Jonathan DeYoe: life.

[00:18:04] Brian Herriot: Yeah. Well, , the research that I saw was from 2 0 0 8 and it was the study of 500,000. I think it was Europeans and Americans and kind of looking at just general happiness motivation over, over the years of your life. And they mapped it out and it showed that, you know, in your twenties coming outta college, people are happy, they’re motivated, they’re excited at, but then as you hit later in thirties and in your forties, it kind of starts to dip down.

[00:18:33] Brian Herriot: But fortunately, you know, our hope is not lost because as you hit like. Fifties, sixties, seventies, and then all of a sudden you kind of get back up to the, the heights at the end. So that’s that the, the version of the, you know, it looks like a smile. And what I believe is happening there is, it’s kind of the midlife crisis thing in a way and this happened for me, I’d be curious to see if this is, you know.

[00:18:58] Brian Herriot: How you experience kind of your [00:19:00] work in your life is like you, you hit those years in your twenties and your thirties and you’re just working hard and it’s like, what am I working on next? You know, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? And then Something happens in your forties, or maybe even me, it was, you know, early, late thirties.

[00:19:15] Brian Herriot: , , and you almost ask that question, it’s like, ? Why was I doing all this again? You know, it was that Marissa Meyer moment is, was mine. And then you kind of make a choice and I. So you’re, you’re switching over from like, what am I doing to, why am I doing it? And I think that happens naturally, and that’s eventually people figure it out and they move into the, you know, the wisdom and teaching and those sorts of things and start to move back up.

[00:19:39] Brian Herriot: But my, my thinking is, if you’re aware that this is going to happen, couldn’t you somehow make that smile, not have to be so deep, you know, like kind of catch it a little earlier. , and make that transition. But like you said, it’s that point where you have to either have the time, which is usually not the case, or be forced into having the [00:20:00] time loss, job loss, divorce, somebody dies.

[00:20:03] Brian Herriot: , some event happens that forces you into thinking, what do I want here? You know? that’s when you can make that

[00:20:11] Jonathan DeYoe: Is that in the, is that in that literature, is it in the research that if the event happens, and I, and I ask, because

[00:20:16] Jonathan DeYoe: I’ll just tell you the story. Uh, , I, I’m a workaholic. I, I

[00:20:20] Jonathan DeYoe: own it. Like, I, I actually really like what I

[00:20:22] Jonathan DeYoe: do, so I, I do a lot of it,

[00:20:23] Brian Herriot: mm-Hmm.

[00:20:24] Jonathan DeYoe: but my brother died in 2021. And then like questions like, what am I doing this for? My buddy Gary’s travel six months outta the year. What’s the point of all this work? Why, you

[00:20:34] Jonathan DeYoe: know, the whys came up. So is that in the research that, that, that is a

[00:20:38] Jonathan DeYoe: stimulant

[00:20:39] Jonathan DeYoe: for

[00:20:40] Brian Herriot: No, it’s not that research is just modeling, the happiness curve

[00:20:44] Jonathan DeYoe: this,

[00:20:45] Jonathan DeYoe: this is,

[00:20:45] Jonathan DeYoe: you’re, you’re thinking

[00:20:46] Jonathan DeYoe: this might have an

[00:20:47] Brian Herriot: this is, this is my, yeah, and I mean, I’m sure there’s other, I haven’t gone to look, but I’m sure there’s other studies that talk about, you know, life inflection points and things like that. , but yeah, I mean, even like city slickers, remember that

[00:20:59] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, I do. [00:21:00]

[00:21:00] Brian Herriot: when, you know, when he is like, it’s the one thing, you know? It’s like, and, and I, I actually, it was on TBS or something the other day and I just saw the part where he tells him about that and he goes, uh, is Jack Palins? Right?

[00:21:13] Brian Herriot: He’s the, the rough guy. He’s like, this always happens. How old are you? 39. And he is like, yeah, I’m 39. It’s almost like. To a t when it, when it happens in life. And I don’t know, like, does that mean that everyone’s gonna have a, a death in the family or something? Then I don’t know.

[00:21:29] Brian Herriot: It’s, it’s around there. But boy, those things that I think you’re just at a different stage. So when it, when that thing does happen, you’re like primed for it. You know, you’re primed to want to ask yourself those questions. , but again, this is just my, I’m no researcher or, , psychologist or anything like that.

[00:21:46] Brian Herriot: I’m just trying to. Project what I think.

[00:21:49] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. But think, I mean, thinking about the people you work with though, I mean, is it also, it’s not, people may say, Hey, I want, I want to have more time freedom. Does that also come with [00:22:00] career shift divorce? Your kids go off to college? There’s all

[00:22:04] Jonathan DeYoe: kinds of stuff that happens in that mid, late forties, early

[00:22:07] Jonathan DeYoe: fifties.

[00:22:08] Brian Herriot: Yes. I think the worst scenario is where something like that happens. , you’re 50, something happens, and you look at your numbers and you’re like, well, I’m kind of close. You know, I’m just 15 more years, just 10 more years. And then all of a sudden you find yourself kind of convincing yourself to just.

[00:22:30] Brian Herriot: Settle for 15 years and just keep at it. Like, fortunately, like in your case or my case, I do really love, we love what we’re doing, right? But I don’t think everybody does. or there’s good elements, but there’s a lot of, you know, the corporate politics and the administrative type stuff that you have to do and all those sorts of things, and you’re like, I’m just gonna.

[00:22:50] Brian Herriot: Suck it up and deal with it for another 15 years. And that makes me actually really sad. , that’s the thing that I really don’t want anyone to do. ’cause like what again, what happens if you [00:23:00] do have an accident or something happens in like year 14 and you’ve just settled for those years? I mean, that’s just awful.

[00:23:09] Brian Herriot: but I can understand why, why people might feel that way. Anyway, my, my goal is to get people to be like. You know, just imagine you don’t have to do that. What would you wanna do? Let’s run the numbers and see how that could actually work. , , and not just the numbers, but then figure out how you could restructure, , your work , in a way that you could actually find this time freedom.

[00:23:29] Jonathan DeYoe: you, you’re actually looking at both then you’re, you’re looking at financial feasibility and at process

[00:23:34] Jonathan DeYoe: strategy.

[00:23:36] Brian Herriot: Yeah. And that, that’s kind of the unique, I mean, it’s also been like a struggle in how I talk about what I do because it, there’s a very much a financial component to it. , at the root of it, I am a financial coach because I’m talking about the numbers, but the numbers for the people I work with, for them to have time freedom.

[00:23:55] Brian Herriot: It’s 80% of the time you need to be self-employed. Right? That’s ’cause that’s how you’re going [00:24:00] to be able to control it. There’s, there’s ways that you can, jobs you can get and things like that, that have more time freedom, but by and large it’s self-employment. So then all of a sudden you have, you know, you kinda have to be a entrepreneurial.

[00:24:13] Brian Herriot: Small business advisor in a way too be, and it’s not just , finances, it’s also, , you know, entrepreneurship , as well. That is kind of the combination. But for me, like, and when I work with people, , it starts with the finances because you, you know, when you, like I, I talk about, , this concept of the lifestyle freedom equation.

[00:24:30] Brian Herriot: So it’s super simple. On one side, you’ve got what you live on. Right now, I’m, I’m not one for suggesting that you cut way back and scrimp and save, but actually that you spend with your values. Once you take a look at that number, if you could start to use some of the savings that you have. Let’s say you live in California and it costs $200,000 to live in everywhere else, maybe, you know, change the numbers, but then, , you could draw a hundred thousand on your savings.

[00:24:55] Brian Herriot: All of a sudden, you only have to make a hundred thousand dollars a year, which again, this [00:25:00] is not everybody, but for people that you know are working in corporate jobs and you’re like a hundred thousand, oh, maybe I could do that in six months or maybe I could do that in four months If, if I’m training my time or you have a business that you can set up with processes and have people working with you that allow you to step away for six months, that’s another scenario as well.

[00:25:17] Brian Herriot: But there’s ways to do it, but people tend to kind of think in how they’ve always done it or how your parents did it, and you’re not really kind of exploring these crazy ideas. And sometimes, I mean, you come up with an idea like, I’m gonna sell my house in California and move full-time to Wisconsin, financially free forever.

[00:25:36] Brian Herriot: Sure it would work, but I don’t want to do that. You know? But at least it, it kind of forces you to think well. You know, what other kind of crazy idea could I do? , and so a lot of, I think what I battle is a little bit of fear around the money stuff, but mostly it’s just conventional thinking like, , this way of living is not common.

[00:25:55] Brian Herriot: And also in a, a typical 40 hour a week job, it’s not possible. [00:26:00] And so it’s, it’s hard to break out of, out of that. And it’s nobody’s fault. It’s just, it is kind of what it is. Um,

[00:26:06] Jonathan DeYoe: just a, quick story. I had a, I had a, uh, a good friend of mine who his job was killing him, just killing him. He was like a construction advisor, you know, working for a big company, , building, , industrial things and just killing him. Body was worn out, just couldn’t do it anymore.

[00:26:21] Jonathan DeYoe: And he said, you know what? I don’t need that much more. I need to work for a few more years so I don’t touch my savings and let that grow. Right. , and so he ended up growing

[00:26:29] Jonathan DeYoe: raspberries in his backyard and selling them to local restaurants. ’cause he loved his garden. He loved growing raspberries. He just, he’s like, I’m gonna put all kinds of rose raspberries in.

[00:26:37] Jonathan DeYoe: He had pints and pints and pints and pints of raspberries, really, really good raspberries. Right? And it made, you know, that made enough for

[00:26:44] Jonathan DeYoe: him to make his payment and, and stuff on his house. So just. How do I tread water for four or five years? , and if I have to, I’ll work in a hardware store. He loved hardware, you know, so just how do I pursue the passion? Do something I’ll do anyways, not have to do the grind, protect the body, and then five years, then I can draw on my portfolio if I [00:27:00] need to. Right. That kind of thing. I, I love the idea of just being creative, figuring something out that can make it, you know, make it work.

[00:27:06] Jonathan DeYoe: , is that kind of the idea. in terms of

[00:27:08] Brian Herriot: It is exactly the idea. So like my scenario, I was actually had you pulling a little bit of your savings and in yours, you know, you weren’t you, it’s just that this, this person made as much as he needed to live off of and , I think they , they coast, they’re kind of coasting to your retirement

[00:27:24] Jonathan DeYoe: Coast fire. Coast

[00:27:26] Brian Herriot: post-fire. You got it.

[00:27:27] Jonathan DeYoe: Yep.

[00:27:28] Brian Herriot: And so it’s a perfect, yeah. It’s another variation. , and then how many people are jealous because, you know, he’s doing exactly what he wants? , you, you probably look half to age because the stress isn’t hitting you anymore. Like. Those are the best. When somebody retires and they come back for a retirement party when they’ve been retired for two years and they come back on the Zoom and you look at ’em and you’re like, oh my God, you look so young.

[00:27:55] Brian Herriot: Like, I don’t, you know, I don’t, I don’t wanna ever have that experience. I always wanna [00:28:00] look as young as I could, can look, you know, I.

[00:28:04] Jonathan DeYoe: So, uh, define corporate grind. I know you talk about helping people escape the corporate grind, so I, I don’t know that does, is there still a corporate grind? I, I know that there is, that’s a stupid question, but what is

[00:28:15] Jonathan DeYoe: the corporate grind?

[00:28:16] Brian Herriot: , my take is like, the people that I work with are successful people and successful people always find the work. ’cause I still consult for my client is a large company, so I’m, I, I see this day in and day out. And so, , even though I myself am just self-employed, I, I still work when I do work.

[00:28:35] Brian Herriot: With a big company, and so you see. You see all types, but the people that are good are the ones that attract the work, and then that therefore means they’re doing the job of two people instead of one. Plus, you know, with all of this tightening going on recently, you know, , I think the people that are let go, , in the tech space or market media space or wherever they happen to be, they have it tough, but it’s also tough on all the people that [00:29:00] are left behind who have to then absorb all the, all that work.

[00:29:02] Brian Herriot: So all of a sudden. You’re doing the job of more than one person and. and dealing with all the politics. I think those, the combination of those two things, and a lot of times the stuff that, the, the work that you have to do, that’s the second person’s work is all this just additional work that isn’t even necessary.

[00:29:21] Brian Herriot: It’s like administrative type stuff that needs to get done. It’s just, it’s part of the process. So you have to do it. And all of a sudden you realize that’s, that’s how you start working 50, 60, 70 hours a week. and. That’s tough and, and I think that’s why people get so stressed. Are stressed and burned.

[00:29:38] Brian Herriot: Burned out.

[00:29:39] Jonathan DeYoe: So I, I wanna ask , the how question in a second. But I, I managed a business for about 20 years, and I think , in the early days, I had this idea, and I, I remember starting it because I wanna be able to leave at three. Like I want, ’cause I’m, I, I, I don’t have kids yet. I want to be able to go get my kids from school.

[00:29:55] Jonathan DeYoe: That was my thinking, you know, 15 years in when I can finally do [00:30:00] that. I’m working more than my clients that are in the corporate grind. So how do you keep your, your entrepreneurial lift in check? Because you can always, you know, my mom used to say, if you want something done, give it to

[00:30:14] Jonathan DeYoe: somebody that’s busy ’cause they’ll get it done.

[00:30:16] Brian Herriot: Yeah, yeah, no, that’s exactly what

[00:30:17] Jonathan DeYoe: that in check?

[00:30:20] Brian Herriot: Um, in a new business. So outside of the corporate stuff, I think two things I could probably say. One is I feel like if you have a, a, a multi-person, small business, you know. 3, 4, 5, 6. The more people that you have, the more responsibility you have, right?

[00:30:39] Brian Herriot: And so you’re gonna feel obligated. And so the, , scenarios that I work on with people are. Solo endeavors, you know, single person things or some, you know, it’s them plus an administrative assistant, things like that. Because I’ve noticed, so, you know, I’ve, my, my consulting firm has gone from me to me [00:31:00] plus two, and you know, , but I’m so careful about who I hire because I don’t want.

[00:31:05] Brian Herriot: Like I, I’d rather have less money , and less stress than more money and more stress. And so the only people at here are just absolutely incredible people that make my job easier, not harder. , but if you’re in a situation with a, you know, a decent sized small business,, that’s gonna happen to you.

[00:31:19] Brian Herriot: Like, I, I just don’t know what else to say. , but otherwise, the other thing that I just semi recently read was that, , Dan Sullivan and Benjamin Hardy book that that. 10 x is easier than two x. Which again, like I, there’s examples in there and I haven’t seen it applied yet, but the concept really is attractive to me where it’s the, you know, which is like if you wanna grow 10%, you just do all the stuff.

[00:31:42] Brian Herriot: You’re doing 10% better. But if you wanna grow 10 times, there’s really like one or two things that you can do. So figure out what those things are and just work on those. So how do you, you get massively bigger and you work less. It seems like it would work. , , I’m actually trying to figure out how to try that out in my own business.

[00:31:59] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. [00:32:00]

[00:32:00] Brian Herriot: Um, you know, through writing a book and speaking and like, that’s a shift that I’m consciously making going. Those are the two big things I’m gonna work on. And then see , what happens. , based on that, instead of doing all the stuff I’m already doing 10% better. So, we’ll see.

[00:32:15] Jonathan DeYoe: the idea of limiting it to, and that’s, you, you just, you nailed the issue. I had, like, I had seven to eight people and once you have seven or eight people and you have hr, you’ve got Tech Stack and you got all this stuff, you gotta manage. , at the end of the day, there’s

[00:32:27] Jonathan DeYoe: no, there is

[00:32:28] Jonathan DeYoe: no four hour work work anymore.

[00:32:30] Jonathan DeYoe: I.

[00:32:30] Brian Herriot: you know what’s similar to that too, that I, I found with people that I work with is they have three to four rental properties. So again, if you had one rental property, that would work. Or if you had. 15 that would work. ’cause you could hire someone, but when you’re in that middle, you’re stuck doing everything for all of ’em.

[00:32:50] Brian Herriot: And it’s almost sounds like, like if your business was a little bigger, then you could have that right hand person that would take over or, or less, which is, you know, the easier solution from my perspective that would [00:33:00] also work. But you’re like stuck in that middle and that’s where it’s extra tough.

[00:33:03] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, that the whole idea of scale, I, I, and I literally,

[00:33:08] Jonathan DeYoe: I told the story a bunch of times. Um, I was, my brother died in June of 21. He was going to join my firm and be the CEO in January of 22. Like we had planned this for a decade. He had to get out of tech. He had his last shares, he had to vest, he had all this kind of stuff, and it was a total accident fluke thing that took him. , And I almost had that person that would give me that space. And that’s why by the end of the year, I, I had merged the firm because I couldn’t, I, I just

[00:33:37] Jonathan DeYoe: couldn’t go back to, to, you

[00:33:39] Jonathan DeYoe: know, myself. But, uh, that’s

[00:33:40] Jonathan DeYoe: such a good point. Um, and I really sort of appreciate.

[00:33:43] Brian Herriot: old was He

[00:33:45] Jonathan DeYoe: He was 46.

[00:33:47] Jonathan DeYoe: 40 46.

[00:33:48] Brian Herriot: I’m sorry to hear that. I’m really sorry.

[00:33:50] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Uh, you know, you gotta be beware of, um, what’s it called?

[00:33:55] Jonathan DeYoe: Riptide.

[00:33:56] Jonathan DeYoe: He drowned in, uh, near Santa Cruz. Beware of riptides. , and

[00:33:59] Jonathan DeYoe: he [00:34:00] knows better, but it’s,

[00:34:00] Brian Herriot: pulled in.

[00:34:01] Jonathan DeYoe: yeah, pretty rough. And it was very cold, you know.

[00:34:04] Jonathan DeYoe: Anyway.

[00:34:05] Brian Herriot: Yep.

[00:34:06] Jonathan DeYoe: All right. Pulling, pulling it together. So I want, I want you to, I ask this of everybody, I want you to simplify it for us. So say you’re chatting with someone you know, , that they’re currently doing the management consulting thing.

[00:34:17] Jonathan DeYoe: Maybe it’s a Deloitte or they’re a Fortune 500 company, whatever. What is the one thing they can do today that’s gonna lead them to more time freedom?

[00:34:26] Brian Herriot: I think what I, I’m not super happy with my answer here, but let’s go. The thing that you identified about taking a moment.

[00:34:36] Jonathan DeYoe: Hmm.

[00:34:37] Brian Herriot: To figure out what’s really important to you is, is what they have to do. Because I’ve found for someone, for me to say, you need time freedom, you should go do it. Unless that’s internalized is not gonna happen, you know?

[00:34:55] Brian Herriot: And that’s okay.

[00:34:56] Brian Herriot: and I, I always reflect this in the way of like, when you’re putting your action plan together, [00:35:00] what’s the first thing you should do? Wait until the time is right, which is like a weird set of tools for someone to do, to go take action on something. But like, when the time is right, you’re gonna get really good, really fast. , my son never wanted to take drum lessons, although he’s an incredible drummer, but I learned not to force him to do it because when he’s. In college and he figures out he wants to do it in one year, he’ll have made more progress than he could have in 15 years, you know? So I think you need to internalize the fact that you want it, and to do that, you need to actually have a moment to think about it.

[00:35:36] Brian Herriot: So you need a little time to figure out if you want more time.

[00:35:39] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. No, I like it. I like it. It, it goes back to that phrase, uh, you know, when the student is

[00:35:44] Jonathan DeYoe: ready, the teacher appears. Right?

[00:35:46] Brian Herriot: Oh yeah. I like that. I like that.

[00:35:48] Jonathan DeYoe: so, what’s it, that’s one thing that someone has to do. What is one thing that, that’s keeping them trapped? Something they should stop doing?

[00:35:56] Brian Herriot: You need to just stop listening to conventional wisdom [00:36:00] sometimes. boy, is that hard to do though. It’s so easy to just say, stop doing that. That’s why I was, I’m kind of struggling with it, but it’s like, there are no shortage of people telling you how you should do stuff.

[00:36:11] Brian Herriot: , you know, usually it involves making a lot more money and, you know. Rising up the ranks, becoming all powerful at your work and to decide to do that differently is very hard. Not just to decide to do it yourself, but to do it while all these messages are hitting you. So, um, yeah. stop taking in all the messages, huh?

[00:36:34] Brian Herriot: Easier said than done.

[00:36:36] Jonathan DeYoe: But, but so important. I mean, to today, I mean, imagine someone starting a business and getting the message from their parents 35 years ago, Hey, don’t do this. That’s insane. You should be a doctor, or you should be a lawyer, right? Today, you get the message from your parents and everyone

[00:36:52] Jonathan DeYoe: on Facebook. And everyone on every social media and everyone that’s complaining in, in just general media about the malaise and

[00:36:59] Jonathan DeYoe: [00:37:00] how bad everything is, and, and you’re like, what am I doing?

[00:37:02] Jonathan DeYoe: It’s so

[00:37:02] Jonathan DeYoe: easy just to get ugh, to get crushed by all that. So yeah, I, I think that’s probably something you gotta stop doing. I think that’s, I think you nailed it.

[00:37:09] Jonathan DeYoe: , you, you said you were writing a book. What’s the, what’s the topic? You might have already

[00:37:14] Jonathan DeYoe: touched on it.

[00:37:16] Brian Herriot: Yeah. Um, the book is for someone who really values financial freedom. I. But believes that they need to kind of become independently wealthy to get it. , I am suggesting that there’s a different way you can do it by kind of taking a look at the modest savings that you have accumulated and combining that with a flexible, free work of choice.

[00:37:38] Brian Herriot: And if you can combine those two things together, you actually don’t need financial freedom. , you just want the freedom part. , , you need money, but maybe not as much as you think. And so that’s who I’m writing for and to try to teach a, a slightly different path. And then, you know. Using framework and stories, including a [00:38:00] couple that I’m gonna ask you about later, um, about people that have done this, because I don’t think everybody has a lot of good examples, , out in life of, of, of individuals that have done this and are really happy about it.

[00:38:12] Brian Herriot: Because whenever I tell it, people are like, wow, that’s so cool, but it wouldn’t work for me. And I’m like, no, wait, wait a second. Don’t just automatically think that, you know, , I want more people to be able to experience. , more time earlier in life so that they can do, you know, do the things that they wanna do.

[00:38:28] Jonathan DeYoe: I actually, I think you’re, you’re on something and, and it’s something I thought a little bit about too. So there’s this, there’s this whole group of people, people that do what I do.

[00:38:35] Jonathan DeYoe: For helping people retire. Right? That’s get a big pile of assets and live off the income from those assets. And then there’s people that are in the fire community that are like, okay, retire as quickly as you can, so minimize your expenses and start wherever.

[00:38:46] Jonathan DeYoe: Here you’re saying,

[00:38:47] Jonathan DeYoe: Hey, why don’t You, do something you like?

[00:38:48] Brian Herriot: You, you

[00:38:49] Jonathan DeYoe: Do something you like in the middle, make some money and live on some assets, but make some, you can do that for until you’re 80 if you, I mean, I know attorneys and I know real estate agents. I, my real estate agent, when I [00:39:00] bought my first home in Berkeley, I. She was like 78 years old. You know, she only

[00:39:04] Jonathan DeYoe: did a couple deals a year, but

[00:39:06] Brian Herriot: yeah.

[00:39:06] Brian Herriot: That’s all you need

[00:39:07] Jonathan DeYoe: she needed, right. So there’s something, I think you’re something, there’s

[00:39:10] Jonathan DeYoe: a middle point where.

[00:39:11] Brian Herriot: Well, yeah, and where I, where it first kind of dawned on me also was I was listening to, again, some podcasts. I can’t remember what it was, but they were talking, it was a financial advisors who had worked with thousands of people and they said, and I’d be curious to hear your perspective on this too, but they said, people that.

[00:39:30] Brian Herriot: Can’t afford to retire. So want to retire, but the people that can totally afford to do it don’t necessarily want to or need to because they’ve somehow figured out a life. A life or a work for themselves that allows them to keep going. And I’m like, wow. If that’s actually true, then how unfortunate would you it be to work this hard job all the way, all the way up to the end and then go, oh, I guess I don’t wanna retire.

[00:39:53] Brian Herriot: Like, why not kind of. Pull back what you really wanna do and do that, you know, sooner,, and [00:40:00] not wait for so long. I don’t know. Is that, does that resonate with what you,

[00:40:04] Jonathan DeYoe: I mean,

[00:40:04] Brian Herriot: who you work with?

[00:40:06] Jonathan DeYoe: that, that’s

[00:40:06] Jonathan DeYoe: resonates personally. That’s me. I mean, I, exactly. And a lot of people I work with, but there’s the message, oh, you’re, it’s not gonna be enough. You know, there’s the little, uh, you know, you’d be worried about this. You

[00:40:16] Jonathan DeYoe: gotta keep going, you know, and that’s just,

[00:40:18] Brian Herriot: That’s if you stop working completely. I believe, like, I think the most freedom you could ever have is the ability to just make money. So if you could turn on and turn, you know, turn up and turn down how much you’re making, that is more freedom than having $5 million in the bank. ’cause who knows what could happen to that money.

[00:40:34] Brian Herriot: You know, you’re, it’s out of your control. It’s,

[00:40:35] Brian Herriot: Yeah, having a lot of money is one level of freedom, but being able to make it on a moment’s notice because you know the skills and the network and the this and that and like, if you could do that, boy, , in my mind, that should take away the the

[00:40:48] Jonathan DeYoe: the, fear.

[00:40:49] Brian Herriot: the fear

[00:40:50] Brian Herriot: ex.

[00:40:50] Brian Herriot: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:40:52] Jonathan DeYoe: So just, just before we wrap up, I, I like to ask a couple more personal questions. , and, and this, this person always

[00:40:57] Jonathan DeYoe: catches people off guard, so take a second if you need. [00:41:00] What was the last thing you changed your mind about?

[00:41:02] Brian Herriot: Oh, well, the, I don’t know if it’s the last, but I know one that’s pretty big and it’s money related. And boy, people are so entrenched in their beliefs about money, but I’ll tell it to you anyway. , , I was a vanguard buy and hold passive low cost index fund. Personal finance for dummies. The whole, you know, bit from the time I was swindled by an insurance salesman when I was 20.

[00:41:32] Brian Herriot: Okay. And four years ago I heard somebody say that market risk was manageable. And I’m like, that’s bogus. But I actually believe that now, , through. This version of momentum investing that I have half of my money managed with on the side of the buy and hold part, which, you know, controls your [00:42:00] downside loss because the loss asymmetry where you have to like, you know, get twice the return to get back to even.

[00:42:05] Brian Herriot: And I thought, I’ve never really thought about. When you sell, you know, all those sorts of things. And so I went down this deep path of learning, and I actually now believe that there is a way, there is a different way that’s also successful, that’s also in line with all of my values around low cost and diversification and all those very, very important things that everyone should learn and follow that’s different from just traditional buy and hold investing.

[00:42:29] Brian Herriot: And I’d never thought I would’ve, would’ve said that. , so anyway, I’ll leave it at that.

[00:42:33] Jonathan DeYoe: I love and a point to this, I, I love how you are doing half and

[00:42:36] Jonathan DeYoe: half.

[00:42:38] Brian Herriot: Oh

[00:42:38] Jonathan DeYoe: not, not all in, but

[00:42:40] Jonathan DeYoe: yeah. There’s no idea. Let’s, yeah, let’s use, I I love that. That’s exactly the way, uh, to think

[00:42:44] Jonathan DeYoe: about it, I think.

[00:42:45] Brian Herriot: that’s one of my principles be it should be whatever method you use should be very testable, you know? , So that you can adjust, you know, if you need to. But yeah, I, and, and that is not. Conventional at all. So,

[00:42:58] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah.

[00:42:59] Brian Herriot: that might be [00:43:00] a bonus chapter in the book because people, it’s so different, you know,

[00:43:04] Jonathan DeYoe: I, I have a totally different take and we’ll probably have

[00:43:06] Jonathan DeYoe: to talk about this offline, but I don’t believe in market risk. I don’t

[00:43:08] Jonathan DeYoe: think there is any. So, uh,

[00:43:10] Brian Herriot: Oh, okay. Well, you’re, you’ve gone even further than me, so that’s good. It,

[00:43:14] Jonathan DeYoe: we’ll talk about that in a, a different time. So if, if,

[00:43:17] Jonathan DeYoe: one last question. If, if you could get the truth about any question about your life or your future, I can’t give you the answer, but if you could get the truth, what question would you ask?

[00:43:27] Brian Herriot: actually, it would be kind of a two-parter. Will my wife and son be okay? And if not.

[00:43:35] Brian Herriot: Tell me exactly what to do to make sure that they are, how about that?

[00:43:39] Jonathan DeYoe: Beautiful man.

[00:43:41] Brian Herriot: yeah.

[00:43:42] Jonathan DeYoe: I just wanna sit with that for a second. That’s, um, will my wife and child be okay? I, yeah.

[00:43:49] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m gonna tear up. That was awesome.

[00:43:50] Brian Herriot: No, that’s, I I do think about that.

[00:43:53] Jonathan DeYoe: Yep,

[00:43:54] Brian Herriot: Yeah, and we can talk more about that offline, but.

[00:43:57] Jonathan DeYoe: So, so tell people how they can connect with you. Where, [00:44:00] where do they

[00:44:00] Jonathan DeYoe: find you? I.

[00:44:01] Brian Herriot: Yeah, you can find me at choosy consultant.com and from there, you know, there’s other ways that can, you can connect with me, take a quiz and do all of that fun stuff. , but yeah, I’d, I’d love to hear from you if you have anything you wanna talk about or anything interesting, interesting to say. That’d be awesome.

[00:44:18] Jonathan DeYoe: All right, Brian, thanks for coming on. , we’re gonna make sure all that’s in the show notes, , and I just really appreciate your time today.

[00:44:24] Brian Herriot: Thanks so much.

[00:44:25] Outro: Thanks for listening. Full show notes for each episode, which includes a summary, key takeaways, quotes, and any resources mentioned are available at Mindful Money. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. And if you’re enjoying the content and getting value from these episodes, please leave us a rating and review at ratethispodcast.com/mindfulmoney. We’ll be sure to read those out on future [00:45:00] episodes.