Vicky Reynal — Unlocking the Psychology of Money with Vicky Reynal

[00:00:00] Vicky: So I benefited a lot. From talking about, well, you know, if it’s just money, why are people reacting so emotionally to it? And it was trying to understand what it meant, what it represented for different people in the family and how they were using it or misusing it in different ways that really helped me understand that, you know, there’s more to this, than just money.

[00:00:21] Vicky: And as a therapist, I have the right tools to help people unpack that. And that’s what I want to do for others because it helped me.

[00:00:28] Intro: Do you think money takes up more life space than it should? On this show, we discuss with and share stories from artists, authors, entrepreneurs, and advisors about how they mindfully minimize the time and energies. Spent thinking about money. Join your host, Jonathan DeYoe, and learn how to put money in its place and get more out of [00:01:00] life.

[00:01:02] Jonathan: Hey, welcome back to Mindful Money. I am chatting with, , Vicky Reynal. Vicky is a financial psychotherapist, the first in the UK. She runs her clinic in London, but zoom makes her available globally. She’s pioneered an approach that applies the principles.

[00:01:17] Jonathan: I’m going to get this right. Psychodynamic psychotherapy to working with our complex relationships with money. Her client base reflects her international background. She’s lived and worked in eight countries across three continents and clients come from a wide range of affluence from socioeconomic struggles all the way through ultra high net worth.

[00:01:36] Jonathan: She helps with issues ranging from succession planning to debt, excessive greed, generosity, spending, money secrets in couples and in partnerships, and obviously financial conflict. She helps individuals decode the emotions. That sit behind the money related difficulties in order to enable understanding and ultimately, hopefully [00:02:00] change. She’s also an advisor to FinTechs, mental health startups. She has a column weekly column in the daily mail and she’s been featured in lots and lots of different publications. I wanted to have her on the podcast to talk about money on your mind. Her book, uh, the psychology behind your financial habits, Vicki, welcome to the mindful money podcast.

[00:02:18] Vicky: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[00:02:20] Jonathan: First, let, let everyone know where do you call home and where are you connecting from now?

[00:02:23] Vicky: So I’m connecting from London, which is where I live and work. But as you said, I see people all over the world, which is great. It makes the work quite diverse and it exposes me to very different viewpoints and personalities.

[00:02:39] Jonathan: I can’t wait to get into some of those. You know, what are things like in the U S versus the UK versus wherever else. But did you grow up in London or do you, or where’d you grow up? I’m

[00:02:46] Vicky: I grew up a bit all over the place, but I did a study in the U. S. And, uh, I started in London as well, so I have, I did my undergraduate, in Philadelphia and I did my postgraduate and my [00:03:00] MBA in London. So I’ve been here for 15 years now.

[00:03:04] Jonathan: curious about money lessons or lessons about entrepreneurship that you received from parents or from, from adults growing up.

[00:03:12] Vicky: Well, I think you’ve, you’ve gone straight to the core of the matter, uh, because what I, talk about in the book is very much how our childhood experiences, uh, how we influence our relationship with money. And what I focus on is the fact that sometimes it’s not even money lessons. that will then shape our relationship with money.

[00:03:34] Vicky: It could be experiences completely unrelated to money, that have shaped what we then do with money, how we respond to those experiences, what emotional imprints they left in us. And we use money to act out those emotional issues. I’m sure we’ll get into it, and I can give you plenty of examples of that.

[00:03:55] Vicky: for me, it was, it was very much the [00:04:00] lessons that I, I picked up indirectly, you know, when you wasn’t talked about, in a way kind of taught, about in my home, but it was very much my effort to try and make sense of how money was being dealt with and how many decisions were being made. My effort to unpack all that in my personal therapy is what shaped my journey to become a financial psychotherapist.

[00:04:26] Vicky: So I benefited a lot. From talking about, well, you know, if it’s just money, why are people reacting so emotionally to it? And it was trying to understand what it meant, what it represented for different people in the family and how they were using it or misusing it in different ways that really helped me understand that, you know, there’s more to this, than just money.

[00:04:47] Vicky: And as a therapist, I have the right tools to help people unpack that. And that’s what I want to do for others because it helped me.

[00:04:55] Jonathan: I’m curious, how old were you when you started to realize that it’s, you know, it’s just [00:05:00] money, but people have these responses and these, they’re engaged differently in this. How old were you when you started seeing that these differences exist?

[00:05:07] Vicky: It’s hard to pinpoint it. And I think with my clients as well, they all hope they’ll be able to go back to that one memory and, and that will unlock everything, but it’s a journey. We pick up messages about money throughout our lives. And sometimes, the penny drops as they say, but that just means that, um, A lot of different messages that you picked up throughout are suddenly constellating around a meaning and suddenly that meaning becomes clear, but it’s not one moment.

[00:05:37] Vicky: It’s the accumulation of all those experiences, I think that make the difference. For me, it happened quite late. It happened in my twenties that I, I had my, uh, so called aha moment with money.

[00:05:50] Jonathan: It can be. Pretty pernicious. I mean, we’re learning lessons, as you say, from all kinds of sources. You know, I always talk about at the knees of our parents and grandparents and [00:06:00] we’re learning these lessons before we know that we’re learning lessons at all. Um, so how do we go about unpacking? Like how do we remove some of the layers and some of the stuff that gets the baggage that gets placed on top of us?

[00:06:11] Jonathan: So

[00:06:13] Vicky: Well, I think you need to have a curious mindset. So be curious about what, what am I doing with money? What does it mean to me? And then start exploring it with no judgment. Because what I find is that once, once you start pulling that thread, It can take you to quite deep places within you because you know, you see some people pursue money because actually what they’re longing for is to be loved or to be taken seriously or to be recognized or you know for people to admire them and all these Longings and desires sometimes come from a very painful place within us.

[00:06:51] Vicky: Maybe we never felt seen or never felt taken seriously in our family for whatever reason. [00:07:00] And so acknowledging those longings. , can’t happen if we’re being harsh on ourselves. If we approach it with, oh, I’m terrible with money, you know, God knows why, why this is. And, you know, so I think you need to start with kind of self compassion and curiosity.

[00:07:14] Vicky: So that’s, that’s the first key. And then there’s practical things that we can do to start and unpick that. So if you take, for example, why might we overspend, right? People overspend for all sorts of different emotional reasons. Some people are trying to kind of fill an emotional void, that they can’t quite name by spending impulsively.

[00:07:37] Vicky: Other people are trying to, maybe fit in, you know, maybe they had experiences. And I talk about this in the book, one client who felt quite bullied and left out in school. They were the odd one out and that left an emotional imprint for them of kind of going through life, longing to fit in. And they ended up buying 100 dresses because they just had to [00:08:00] dress the part for every occasion, hoping that this time they’ll have a different experience.

[00:08:04] Vicky: They’ll feel a sense of belonging in the group. And so you can see how. can come from different places and so to spot it, you need to be inquisitive about, well, what are the patterns around my overspending? You see, do I overspend on Sundays? Okay, why is it on Sundays? Oh, that’s the day when I feel loneliest.

[00:08:27] Vicky: Okay, so the overspending is trying to distract you from feelings of loneliness. Well, how else could you be addressing the loneliness? Is there something you can do on a Sunday that isn’t? Going on shopping websites. Other times, it’s the inconsistencies in our behavior that point us to the source of the problem.

[00:08:47] Vicky: So, for example, I’ve seen people who are normally quite good with their spending. They don’t overdo it. They’re quite measured. But every time they go out with one particular group of friends, they just [00:09:00] overspend like mad. And so you start asking, well, what is it about that group? And suddenly, they’re remembering memories of what it was like growing up.

[00:09:10] Vicky: These are cousins, you know, it’s a group of cousins. And there was a competitiveness in the family, even amongst the uncles, and trying to show off to each other. And now they’re almost replicating that behavior that they learned growing up. And here they are, kind of, you know, accidentally disclosing their bonus, and then going back home saying, Gosh, I never do that.

[00:09:31] Vicky: That was so out of character. And so sometimes when you see yourself behaving in an unusual way, you can also be curious about that and say, well, you know, what’s that about? What part of me is this coming from? So I think there’s, there’s different ways to explore it, but curiosity and self compassion are key.

[00:09:50] Jonathan: I’m a, Buddhist meditation teacher. Uh, I’ve meditated for 30 years and I think two of the most critical pieces is that nonjudgment and the self compassion and, [00:10:00] especially what I find, and this isn’t me, this is the literature talks about, this is especially difficult in the Western world.

[00:10:07] Jonathan: The self compassion, do you see people that have the hard time forgiving themselves and not judging themselves?

[00:10:16] Vicky: Absolutely. And you know, I think it’s one of the, um, Most common, emotions that come up for people when we talk about money is shame. And that shame comes from a part of ourselves that is really harsh and judgmental. You know, we should be better with money. We should be doing it better. Even people who are, you know, highly educated and, you know, have jobs in finance.

[00:10:42] Vicky: Sometimes they’ll come to my consulting or say, I feel like I should be better with money. You know, I’m so good at work and at home, I’m a mess. And, you know, It’s almost a universal phenomenon. We all feel we should be doing better with money. And I always ask, well, what makes you think it’s an innate skill?

[00:10:58] Vicky: You know, we’re not kind of born [00:11:00] knowing about personal finance. We’re not taught about it in school. And because it’s a taboo, most parents don’t talk about it and they’re ashamed of their own, you know, badness when it comes to money. So, you know, they’re not going to impart that on their children. And so, you know, suddenly we’re adults.

[00:11:15] Vicky: Thinking on the one hand, we should be better with money, but having learned nothing about it throughout our lives, so it’s,, a big paradox, but until you lay it out for people, they’re just carrying that chain secretly, thinking they’re the only ones.

[00:11:31] Jonathan: and it’s, it’s true, both my experience and I just like, to confirm this, it’s true. If you have no money or if you have a lot of money, it’s just the shame and the stuff that’s underlying and those emotions, they’re just, you can’t get rid of them.

[00:11:45] Vicky: you know, What’s interesting that, when you see people with a lot of wealth, what I find is that sometimes they’ll come, uh, quite disillusioned about money. You know, money didn’t deliver on its promise. It didn’t make them [00:12:00] happy. It didn’t, fix all the problems in the family that didn’t, it didn’t resolve all conflict.

[00:12:06] Vicky: And actually on top of the Money shame that, you know, your average person might carry. They also have shame about their unhappiness because they’re sitting they’re saying, well, I have everything, yet I’m still unhappy, what’s wrong with me? It’s a different sort of shame and it’s, a very difficult place to be in because we live in a society that, has imbued all this promise around money.

[00:12:32] Vicky: It’s supposed to do these great things that then actually we discover doesn’t do, it doesn’t make us more lovable, likeable, doesn’t fix everything.

[00:12:41] Jonathan: I had so personally, I’ve had so many of those illusions and I’ve, I’ve had some of that disillusionment as I’ve gotten more successful, I was raised pretty poor and I ended up doing pretty well. And totally feel that like, I, wow, it didn’t. It didn’t live up to its promise and then work in the financial services world.

[00:12:58] Jonathan: And I talked to people and it’s, [00:13:00] that’s a pretty universal statement. Most people get money and go, wow, it’s really wasn’t. I have options that I didn’t have. But I don’t feel any different. So what do we do to sort of write that ship and to begin to feel better around money?

[00:13:16] Vicky: well, I think we need to have a realistic conversation. With ourselves about what we’re hoping money will get us. And are we looking for that thing that we’re hoping for in the right place? So if, you know, if we think that it’s more money that is going to, , make us be recognized and taken seriously by our family, well, is it, is it going to be the money or is it, you know, the quality of conversations we have with them or, you know, what we articulate to them about, our sense of purpose or whatever it is, but you know, are we looking for it in the right place?

[00:13:54] Vicky: Is that desire to fit in going to be met by an expensive dress [00:14:00] or is it going to be about what you say to the people around you, how you try to connect with them? And you see sometimes we like the idea of a quick fix. You know, it’s easier to go online and shop for a dress than to take the risk of, being vulnerable in front of somebody, you know, trying to strike a conversation and then face the potential of a rejection and are picking up the phone because you were feeling lonely and then nobody answers, you know, it’s kind of easier to hope that shopping online is just going to distract you and then you won’t think about it anymore.

[00:14:38] Vicky: But unfortunately, it’s unhealthy because when you end up, for example, overspending, then you also have to deal with the guilt and the regret and the shame that comes with not looking after your finances. And fundamentally, it doesn’t resolve the core issue, the thing you were trying to address in the first place.

[00:14:59] Vicky: So I [00:15:00] think we need to, you know, be careful about what it is that we’re hoping money will do so that we can adjust our expectations And I’m not saying don’t go for it. I mean, there’s a reality that money can enable happy experiences. It can enable a lot of things and the lack of it or the threat of the lack of it can definitely throw us into really dark places because it touches on our sense of security, which is hardwired.

[00:15:29] Vicky: It’s kind of a primal instinct. But if you’re, well into kind of a financial comfort, a degree of financial comfort, and you don’t have to worry about scarcity, then, is the amount of money and time that you’re dedicating to accumulating wealth worth it Is it aligned with what you value?

[00:15:50] Jonathan: about their money. Uh, you’re probably the greatest guest ever because you’re sort of talking [00:16:00] about that, that undergirding emotions and being authentic and knowing what you want and being curious. And it’s so, so important

[00:16:06] Jonathan: your book, you talk about, um, A lot of statistics surrounding money problems specifically.

[00:16:11] Jonathan: So can you, can you paint the picture of those statistics a little bit?

[00:16:15] Vicky: My favorite one is the one about financial anxiety, because actually if you survey people around the world, about 50 percent of the population will say that they’re anxious about money. And, in some instances it has to do with real. and lack, but that’s not necessarily what determines somebody’s financial wellbeing.

[00:16:36] Vicky: It’s not about the amount of money you have or don’t have, but it’s about feeling in control of your financial choices. what they found was actually the more people learn about money. So the higher their financial literacy, the less their financial anxiety, and I think that identifies such a low hanging fruit, you know, if [00:17:00] we just learned some basic money skills It would go such a long way In terms of changing the way we feel about money I think it would go a long way addressing the shame and addressing a lot of anxiety That a lot of people carry about money.

[00:17:16] Vicky: And I think the other interesting statistics in the book are around particularly the younger generations now, asking for more financial literacy. And even the older ones admitting that they wish they had learned more about money. Growing up. And as I say, there is, I think, financial literacy, as we know it, in terms of kind of really understanding basic concepts around, you know, debt and interest rates and what is inflation, you know, those things are a must.

[00:17:47] Vicky: But I think having what I call financial emotional awareness. is another important layer, because the people I see in my consulting room are people who have financial literacy, [00:18:00] but still find themselves stuck in behaviors that they can’t change. So they’ve been to the financial advisors and planners, and they know what they should be doing differently with money.

[00:18:10] Vicky: But something gets in the way and that something is emotional. You know, it could be the impulsive part of them that has developed a gambling addiction, or it could be the withholding part of them, , that doesn’t allow them to enjoy the money they have. And so they hoard it, they amass it, they don’t spend it almost at all.

[00:18:33] Vicky: So I think it’s, they’re too Aspects of financial wellbeing that need to be working together for somebody to have a good relationship with money.

[00:18:43] Jonathan: So I’m going to try to formulate this question. your expertise is in sort of financial psychotherapy, but I’ve heard people, you know, food, , relationships. Do these emotions that we have. That undergird our decisions, right or wrong, good or bad in money. Are they, are [00:19:00] they different emotions? Are you, are you basically treating the same thing as somebody else?

[00:19:04] Jonathan: Another therapist is treating other things. The underlying stuff is the same.

[00:19:09] Vicky: Absolutely. Because ultimately money’s just a symbol and we can use it or misuse it to act out emotional issues. Some people do that with food, as you say, you know, so they might be trying to fill an inner void the same way that the. Greedy person might be doing that with money.

[00:19:28] Vicky: Somebody else could be doing that with food even though the withholding You know, I use the term financial anorexia in the book. And of course You know, we can’t compare a life threatening Eating disorder to financial anorexia to what we do with money. However They often go hand in hand and, you know, I’ve seen people who have starved themselves because they, they don’t want to spend on food.

[00:19:56] Vicky: And so you see there’s, there’s overlaps. It’s all coming from [00:20:00] a part of them that either really needs to, control an object outside of them because something inside of them feels out of control, or it’s a part of them that feels so undeserving that they don’t allow themselves to have good things.

[00:20:17] Vicky: And those good things could be food, nutrition, or it could be the good things that money can buy. And so they don’t allow themselves to, you know, have a coat, , and go through the winter feeling proud that they can survive without it. You know, there, there’s a part of them that thrives in deprivation.

[00:20:38] Jonathan: So we’ve, we’ve talked about, some of these childhood experiences that are sort of informed.

[00:20:42] Jonathan: How does it become childhood experience? To like internalized belief, like what is that system that says, okay, I’m going to use money as a symbol. This is the symbol I’m going to identify and use. What’s that arc?

[00:20:56] Vicky: There is no straight line, you know. It’s very hard to [00:21:00] predict who is going to use. food to react to something, who’s going to use money to react to something, and it’s also very hard to predict how people will react to the very same experience. And that’s why you see siblings who have the same parents, they come from the same social circumstances, maybe even went to the same school, and have very different relationship with money or different relationship with food.

[00:21:23] Vicky: We can’t say experience A leads to outcome B, but what we can do is when we see somebody struggling with something is start to investigate where is this coming from? And, you know, by asking the right questions, you can sort of get to that constellation of experiences that have formed it.

[00:21:44] Vicky: So to give you an example, you know, I’ve had a client whose overspending was very much, related to designer bags and there was nothing When I started asking her about, you know, what is it, most people who buy designer bags might say, oh, it’s the [00:22:00] status. It’s because people will look at me, you know, this, that.

[00:22:03] Vicky: But in her case, it took a while to articulate it. But ultimately, the sense was, these bags, will stay, these bags will, will last forever. And the biggest emotional wound that this person had was that they were left, they were abandoned by their father when they were little. And so they went through their lives kind of looking for something that they could hold on to and they had control over, you know, it wouldn’t leave them the way people leave and, and let you down.

[00:22:38] Vicky: And so you can see how something back then so unrelated to money turned into, well, she found the comfort into spending on certain, things. yeah, it’s hard to predict it, but I think it’s, you can understand it and you can see the link when you explore it in that way.

[00:22:58] Jonathan: In my experience, [00:23:00] people, money is still like, it’s like the last taboo. We’re, we’re, we’re open about sex now or child rearing, all those difficult subjects we’re very open about. Money still is hidden. One of the goals of Mindful Money podcast is to sort of daylight the conversation with different people over time.

[00:23:15] Jonathan: So a, why is it still a taboo? And do you think that, the fact that it’s still a taboo actually creates more problems for people? You know, they don’t know they’re supposed to be introspective. They don’t know they’re supposed to think about their spending. They don’t know how to. So is there, why is it a taboo?

[00:23:31] Jonathan: And then, does that impact the outcomes?

[00:23:34] Vicky: So your second question about, is it a bad thing that it’s a taboo, I think 100 percent yes, you know, it perpetuates the shame and everybody thinks they should be better with it because they haven’t heard other people’s stories. You know, people don’t go on LinkedIn to write about their debt. They go on LinkedIn to write about their latest promotion.

[00:23:55] Vicky: And, and so, you know, we’re expecting. exposed to the success stories, people [00:24:00] don’t talk about their struggles, their difficulties as much. I think for the younger generations now, things are starting to shift. There’s some trends that you see on TikTok, for example, around loud budgeting and people being very vocal about, wanting to be controlled about their money.

[00:24:17] Vicky: And so you can see a reaction is starting to form to the traditional hiding, , of money, but It’s still not enough. And I think there’s a huge role that the education system can play in changing this. But why is it such a taboo? I think it’s because we all set such different parameters around what’s too much, what’s too little, what’s excessive, what’s frugal, what’s too much.

[00:24:42] Vicky: What’s too generous? What’s not generous enough? And we don’t know what parameters the other person sets in their mind. And so we’re ashamed of disclosing ours. We’d rather switch the subject, not talk about it. You know, will they think my salary is too [00:25:00] low or too high? You know, will they think I spend too much or too little on my holiday?

[00:25:04] Vicky: afraid of their judgment because we haven’t been exposed to enough difference when it comes to money. We haven’t. normalized. So it’s a bit chicken and egg, you know, the less it’s talked about, the more there’s shame and unknown and that fuels the not talking about it. And it’s a hard cycle to break.

[00:25:25] Jonathan: So we, we’ve talked a little bit about overspending and you just mentioned, um, this idea of, of, of potentially being overly generous. So in the book, there’s a bunch of passages about this issue. I’ve never heard of it before. Why would someone be overly generous and looking at it?

[00:25:40] Jonathan: What does that mean?

[00:25:41] Vicky: Yes, I put a whole chapter on generosity in there because there’s so many different reasons why people might be generous, and actually some are quite surprising ones. You know, we think that generosity, is an act that comes from a good place.

[00:25:56] Vicky: You know, we’re trying to show love or express [00:26:00] gratitude to somebody, or maybe even show our deepening interest in them. And so we buy them a bigger gift than they expect. And it’s supposed to evoke a good response in the other. But actually, a lot of stories that I hear in the consulting room are of generosity gone wrong.

[00:26:18] Vicky: that’s because people were trying to express something through their gift or the way that the gift was given that actually had some negative sources. So, for example, you know, they forgot to get a present for their friend’s birthday. Okay, that’s interesting. Let’s explore that, what’s going on there.

[00:26:39] Vicky: Actually, it turns out, you know, they felt quite neglected by their friend recently. And, you know, they haven’t been such a good friend, so maybe that’s why. You know, that could be one of the reasons. And so you can see how suddenly something that seemed like an accident was unintentionally, unconsciously trying to express a negative [00:27:00] emotion that hadn’t been talked about in this friendship.

[00:27:03] Vicky: Or, you can see Some of the examples I talk about in the book is the, wife that buys her husband, who always wears t shirts, kind of a colored shirt for Christmas every year. Now, is that a present bought, you know, in the hope of giving joy to the other person, or is it slightly controlling, you know, is it trying to impose on How you want the other person to be on the other, you know, or the mother that drops the meat lasagna off at her daughter’s who has been a vegetarian for five years, you know.

[00:27:39] Vicky: What is that about? You know, is there some anger? Is there control? So there’s, you know, we can express a lot through presents or any kind of financial giving.

[00:27:50] Vicky: I think that the one that definitely, brings a lot of emotions out in people are inheritance, you know, which is supposed [00:28:00] to bring, you know, some happiness to, to the ones who receive it.

[00:28:06] Vicky: And usually it ends up being kind of the end of family relationships because there’s so much emotion that gets tied up into the meaning that is attached to the money. And so even when it’s parents who were trying to, Do their best and give generously when they haven’t explained the reasons for giving more to one sibling versus the other.

[00:28:32] Vicky: I mean, it ends up being left up to imagination. And people tend to apply their worst fears to their interpretation of things. And so you hear all sorts like, oh, clearly they loved my brother more. And, uh, you know, clearly they never respected me enough. Whereas, you know, the rationale could have been, well, you know, you have more children to look after, that’s why we’re giving you more money.

[00:28:56] Vicky: But you see how, I think we go back to this idea, when it’s not talked [00:29:00] about, because, you know, death and money, , who wants to have that conversation? , it gets put off and avoided, and then it, it causes all sorts of problems down the line.

[00:29:11] Jonathan: I didn’t catch the exact word you use, but it was something to the effect that, uh, inheritance always ends up in this challenge. Well, how do we avoid that? If there’s, if it’s always, it seems like there’s no way to avoid it, but how do we avoid that?

[00:29:23] Vicky: Yeah, I mean, that might have been an exaggeration, but it always ends that way when it isn’t talked about before. And I think that’s the key kind of have a wealth planning conversations and you know, and you can just start with guys, you know, dreadful topic, we’re going to talk about my death and what happens after.

[00:29:40] Vicky: But you know, I’d rather you know about this, actually, , I was just reading, , the other day that, um, Warren Buffett just wrote a letter kind of advising parents to all have this conversation very openly with their children. And, uh, Yeah, absolutely. Because if you explain your rationale, you’re [00:30:00] not leaving it up to interpretation and, and children, especially, you know, sibling relationships, I think are not talked about enough.

[00:30:07] Vicky: They can be some of the most passionate relationships we’ll have in our lives and it will, it will shape. And in the book, I talk about how it might shape the rest of us. Your behavior even at work and in business negotiations, you know, when somebody brings up that kind of a rivalry for the boss’s attention, like you used to fight for your father’s attention, you know, those are relationships that are, full of affect.

[00:30:32] Vicky: And so that creates, sets the scene for very emotional interpretations and you don’t want that. You want to. at least present your rationale and your point of view when you’re handing down money so that it’s not misinterpreted.

[00:30:48] Jonathan: have one more topic before we sort of begin a wrap up process. , and that’s, I want to ask this the right way as well. So do you see any stark gender differences between, cause. And I’m going to, I’m [00:31:00] not a psychologist or a therapist, men aren’t really good with feelings, total generalized statement.

[00:31:05] Jonathan: Women are much better with feelings. So do you see that women are more attached? To, or, or more able to unpack this than men, or is it sort of universally difficult?

[00:31:16] Vicky: I think it’s universally difficult. I do think there are some challenges that are specific because a lot of the people in the workplace at the moment might have grown up with a very traditional family setting in which the man was in charge of the money and the woman was at home looking after the children and that emotional imprint can have a strong impact.

[00:31:45] Vicky: For women who, in terms of their ability to feel entitled to the same pay, to really own it, you know, of course a rational part. feels entitled to it. But [00:32:00] what about the part of us that, some other, you know, get all, , upset about money or just be so dependent about one father for money, you know, never really owning that financial decision making.

[00:32:13] Vicky: it’s hard if that’s the imprint that you carry to do something different. And as, as humans, We try to gravitate towards what’s familiar, you know, what things that are unfamiliar are really uncomfortable. And that’s why you see difficulties in couples where the man earns less than the woman, tends to be that, you know, going back to what that means in relation to what we learned.

[00:32:42] Vicky: And so, you know, I have seen women admit that, you know, they, they feel less feminine for being the one that brings in the money, or seeing their husband as less masculine for not earning that big salary. And even if they’re kind of deeply [00:33:00] ashamed of saying it in this day and age, , the reality is that there’s a part of them that finds it just weird because it’s different.

[00:33:08] Vicky: It’s different from what they know. And so it creates all sorts of. Difficulties for

[00:33:14] Jonathan: there’s a lot of noise out there. every guest that comes on, I ask them to simplify something for us. And so what I’d like to ask you Let’s say you’re meeting with somebody who is in a couple and they have this history of, financial secrets being kept between them. And let’s say they’re the ones who the secret was kept from. And so what can they do to bring about additional trust?

[00:33:38] Jonathan: Or to trust again and what can they, what might they be doing that they should stop doing

[00:33:43] Vicky: Unfortunately, money secrets are much more common than we’d like to imagine. And, , it goes back in part. to this idea of shame, to the sense of shame that we carry. , maybe, you know, we feel we’ve [00:34:00] made mistakes with money and that’s what we’re hiding from our partner, or we think they disapprove and judge our behavior and that’s why we hide it.

[00:34:09] Vicky: Sometimes actually, it might be something about our attachment pattern. And let me explain. So if we’re Afraid of very close and intimate relationships, then we find different ways of keeping a distance from the other. We might be, some people do that by insisting on separate bank accounts or for, you know, in different areas of the couple, they try to have their alone time or whatever it is, but they try to always keep a distance.

[00:34:41] Vicky: And sometimes a money secret as a way of feeling safe, of keeping a distance, of feeling that I haven’t given everything away to this person, you know, either there’s still a bit that I’m holding on for myself. So there’s kind of all sorts of different reasons why people keep money secrets. [00:35:00] However, when the secret comes out, it can really hurt the trust in the relationship.

[00:35:06] Vicky: the one thing to remember as the partner whose trust has been broken. Is that, most probably, your partner experiencing a great degree of shame about this. Not just about whatever was hidden, but also about the fact that they were keeping a secret. And that they, they did something that has hurt the relationship and has, Compromised a lot.

[00:35:32] Vicky: So, , the one thing that would help is as much as possible to try not to be too harsh and judgmental, you know, to, , embrace the fact that rebuilding trust will be, uh, a long journey. You know, you can be. open about that. But continuing, , accusations and blame is not going to help rebuild that process.

[00:35:58] Vicky: It’s only going to fuel [00:36:00] more shame and potentially more secrecy. So I think it’s important to speak openly about the feelings, but without judgment. You see, it’s very different to say, , I’m angry, , because you’ve broken my trust or to say you are this, that, and the other, kind of a blaming the other, making a judgment on them.

[00:36:22] Vicky: Those are two very different approaches. So you can still, you know, sit there, talk about the anger. You know, it’s still hard for me to trust you. , But, you know, you could do this. This would help, you know, you can talk together about, , transparency and what that means in the relationship. I think that brings up a lot around the difference between, , privacy and secrecy.

[00:36:46] Vicky: Couples don’t often talk about this, but it’s an important boundary, each person will place that in a different, , place. You know, it’s, you don’t have to, not every single expense that you’re Uh, [00:37:00] partner makes, but where, you know, where does that cross over into secrecy so it can be a very productive space for a couple, you know, because if I’m for bad reasons, but it forces them to have conversations that maybe should have been had, , before the secret emerged.

[00:37:17] Vicky: one last point on this is. because the reasons could be so varied in terms of the secrecy. Try and be curious and understand , why it is that they kept it from you in the first place. You know, you’d be surprised by, by what might come up.

[00:37:33] Jonathan: it’s very, we, we started it with curiosity and nonjudgment and we come here towards the end it’s curiosity and nonjudgment. And I think that’s, that’s a great summary of pretty much anything that gets in your way, right? If you, why let’s be curious and then, and maybe not judge yourself as much. just before we wrap couple other things, what’s the last thing you changed your mind about?

[00:37:53] Vicky: It’s a recent one, but it was a big change. know, I was offered a deal to write the book [00:38:00] and my initial response was, no, I don’t, I don’t have time. What am I going to squeeze writing a book in? And I changed my mind about that because I saw it as a great opportunity to dig into a subject that I wanted to learn more about.

[00:38:16] Vicky: I wanted to explore. And it gave me, you know, what we all need, deadlines and a frame within which to do it. and it’s been a great journey because I, I both, learned and dug really deep into something that I wanted to understand better.

[00:38:34] Jonathan: glad you wrote the book. a good book. I hope people, you should, you know, hear the podcast and pick up the book and read it. There’s a lot in there. People should read Finally, how do people connect with you? Where do they find you?

[00:38:43] Vicky: you can find me on LinkedIn and Instagram. And I’ve just set up a TikTok account, but I haven’t done anything on it yet.

[00:38:52] Jonathan: I’m not going to comment on that. So it’s TikTok is great. who knows? I hope people find you there as well, but LinkedIn, do you have a website?[00:39:00]

[00:39:00] Vicky: Yes, it’s

[00:39:01] Vicky: vickyraynellpsychotherapist.

[00:39:05] Vicky: co. uk

[00:39:06] Jonathan: Perfect. Everything will be in the show notes. Vicky, thanks very much for coming on. I really appreciate your time.

[00:39:11] Vicky: Thank you, thank you for your very interesting questions.

[00:39:14] Outro: Thanks for listening. Full show notes for each episode, which includes a summary, key takeaways, quotes, and any resources mentioned are available at Mindful Money. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. And if you’re enjoying the content and getting value from these episodes, please leave us a rating and review at ratethispodcast.com/mindfulmoney. We’ll be sure to read those out on future episodes.