Ed Vargo — Empowering Women with Financial Confidence with Ed Vargo

[00:00:00] Ed Vargo: There’s no difference in aptitude. At the end of the day, women are certainly just as capable and according to some studies, maybe even more capable with money. I think the perspectives are different, so men tend to be a little bit more narrowly focused on things like Rates of Return, the Stock Market. It becomes a bit more of a measuring stick, you know, the accumulation of money is the target. Women tend to be more worldly and more holistic. I’ve never really heard women talk about money like men do. They’re not saying, oh, what’s my rate of return?

[00:00:26] Intro: Do you think money takes up more life space than it should? On this show, we discuss with and share stories from artists, authors, entrepreneurs, and advisors about how they mindfully minimize the time and energies. Spent thinking about money. Join your host, Jonathan DeYoe, and learn how to put money in its place and get more out of [00:01:00] life.

[00:01:00] Jonathan DeYoe: Hey,

[00:01:00] welcome back on this episode of The Mindful Money Podcast. I’m chatting with Ed Vargo. Ed is the Co-founder and CEO of Burning River Advisory Group and enlighten her a community focused on financial mentorship for women. With over 20 years in financial services, ED helps women navigate long-term financial planning for all stages, including retirement and transitions related to divorce or spousal death.

[00:01:23] His dedication is personal, inspired by his mother’s financial struggles after his parents’ divorce. Ed’s committed to empowering women with the knowledge and confidence to avoid similar hardship. He’s also, to his credit, and this has gotta be harsh, he’s married with five daughters, so, uh, ages, I think 18 to 24 or 25, something like that, whom he has raised to be financially empowered young women.

[00:01:45] Ed, welcome to the Mindful Money Podcast.

[00:01:47] Ed Vargo: Glad to be here,

[00:01:48] Jonathan DeYoe: First, you know, tell us where do you call home? Where are you connecting from?

[00:01:51] Ed Vargo: Cleveland, Ohio. So I’m actually just a little suburb outside of Cleveland and you know, I’ve been here basically my whole life since I was about two years old. That’s [00:02:00] all I know.

[00:02:00] Jonathan DeYoe: So born where?

[00:02:02] Ed Vargo: I was born in Milwaukee. My father was in the army, came back, he served in Korea, where I met my mother by chance. And, um, they got married over there, was stationed in Milwaukee, which is where I was born, when he came back.

[00:02:14] And then he moved back to Cleveland when his, tour ended. So, yeah, been here since, since, uh, 74.

[00:02:22] So it’s been a while.

[00:02:23] Jonathan DeYoe: Oh, we’re the same age you. You must born 72 then.

[00:02:26] Ed Vargo: Yep. Yep.

[00:02:27] Jonathan DeYoe: I was born 71. I’m a year older. That’s why there’s gray. I, I don’t know if you grow it out, what happens, but, uh, I got

[00:02:31] Ed Vargo: Oh yeah, yeah. I’m with you.

[00:02:34] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m, I’m curious, uh, you probably didn’t learn anything in Milwaukee, but when you were in Cleveland as a young lad, what did you learn about money and entrepreneurship?

[00:02:42] Ed Vargo: Honestly, it’s more about what I didn’t learn. You know, I grew up in inner city, Cleveland, you know, my father was a steel worker, my mom was an immigrant. She really didn’t really work at that time. And so we grew up poor. I mean, poor blue collar in the city. Everybody was kind of in the same boat. So you didn’t really notice like how really poor [00:03:00] you were.

[00:03:00] And I don’t mean to overstate it, but we were, you know, blue collar. Struggling to get along. and the money lessons that I learned were really, they’re more kind of like negative money lessons, what not to do. My father wasn’t good with money. he went through a few bankruptcies.

[00:03:12] During this time there was collectors, you know, I guess, um, I don’t know how common that was, but that’s the, the world that I grew up in. And so that’s kinda, I started out my, my sort of money journey. I guess. We all have a place where we start from and I. Of course I’m in a very different place now, being in the money business, you know, but you learn a lot from coming from those two different worlds.

[00:03:32] You really can appreciate the spectrum and the struggles that, um, so many people have. Especially, again, I’m in a different place today and if I didn’t have that experience growing up, I don’t know if I’d have quite the appreciation for what it means to be, you know, true blue collar paycheck to paycheck kind of stuff. And, uh, you know, how things like inflation today can really impact, you know, your world.

[00:03:54] Jonathan DeYoe: I am wondering if you can point to like a specific experience. you’re nine, you’re shopping with mom, or you’re looking [00:04:00] at a new car with dad or. Something like that, that sort of builds an early building block of how one should deal with money or how, how your parents modeled money for you.

[00:04:09] Ed Vargo: Yeah. Again, you know, in my household there really wasn’t much modeling of money. Not in the sense that there was no, it was never a conversation or if there was a conversation about money, it tended to be negative. You know, my father’s not with us anymore, but one of his issues was he always had a difficult time with, with money.

[00:04:27] He just did. And so what I grew up up in a, in a household where money was talked about like in a very negative context. And so those who had money were kind of like they were bad people or they, must have been like doing something wrong or they only focused on money. They only cared about money because they had money.

[00:04:46] And so that was his way I think, of dealing with his own. Inefficiencies and inadequacies with dealing with money. He kind of pushed it off and, and said, Hey, those people must be bad people. They’re only focused on money. They have this big house and all these different things, and he was not that way. [00:05:00] And so he was more, I guess, pure or

[00:05:02] it took like kind of a moral high ground in that regard.

[00:05:05] And so that’s what my upbringing was like. And so it took me a while in, getting into this industry and this business to kind of shake that, you know, and, and not to prejudge others just because they had more

[00:05:16] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, I was,

[00:05:16] I was actually wondering, as you told the story, I’m actually kind of wondering if you had any guilt. About sort of, I know I’m in the industry too. We, I think we get paid ridiculously well for what we do. Um, I’m always sort of advocating for, lower fees and reduced compensation for advisors.

[00:05:32] Sorry, advisors. but I’m wondering if you had any guilt in that whole process of, of sort of engaging the money world and, and in the advisory space.

[00:05:39] Ed Vargo: Yeah, not really. I can’t say there was any guilt. I think my, my relationship with money was very much. It literally wasn’t a relationship. I, you know, I didn’t shun money. I didn’t have like, a negative or pun of connot positive connotation toward it.

[00:05:53] I was very indifferent, quite apathetic.

[00:05:56] Um, I dunno if apathetic is quite the right word, but I really didn’t engage with [00:06:00] it. I never sought it out, even as an advisor and, you know, getting into this business, you know, of course we can make good money in this industry and you’re working with people with money. Money was never a motivator for me. In that regard. And so I never assigned a value. It was always fairly neutral and that has helped me in some instances and it’s hurt me in others. so I haven’t had any, any real guilt with it. And I didn’t grow up like my father did in the sense that, I didn’t look at those who had money as being bad or evil or anything negative. Unlike my like, like my father did. but I also didn’t embrace it either. And that’s where that sort of lack of connection with money hurt me. ’cause I should have embraced, you know, the learning about money much sooner. You know, I made a bunch of mistakes, you know, right outta college. I had no guidance, none of that stuff.

[00:06:41] And I’m not blaming anyone that just how it happened. But I made a ton of mistakes, you know, so as an advisor, I feel like I’m in this. Even having grown up with that circum in those circumstances, right? Very poor. Not learning about money. Making a ton of my own mistakes as a young adult coming outta college [00:07:00] and then having to work through that and kind of get right the ship and then come into this financial services industry. I mean, I kind of run the full spectrum. And now of course, um, thankfully I’m on the opposite end of that spectrum and I’m trying to model good behavior for my girls. And,

[00:07:15] you know, my story, so to speak, really starts with. My parents, but really with my mother’s experience, and then ca, you know, carrying that through all the way to now with my girls’ experience and what I’m trying to, you know, model for them and trying to put them on a very different path than I was on.

[00:07:32] Jonathan DeYoe: so before we get into the work, tell us a little bit about those struggles your mom went through post-divorce.

[00:07:36] Ed Vargo: heart of the matter was, you know, my mom was an immigrant from South Korea, couldn’t read the language. I mean, couldn’t read or write, still really can’t to this day, but it was much more problematic then really wasn’t working at the time. Has never driven and, you know, but she was, you know, raised us and taken care of us.

[00:07:53] And then when the, when the relationship fell apart, she really didn’t have any economic mobility. She really had nowhere to go. [00:08:00] And there’s a cultural difference there as well. Of course, coming to the United States by herself with no other family members. So it was a lot to ask of a young person at that time to do that. Fast forward to when they got divorced. she just didn’t have any economic mobility and so she had, she gave up custody of us, four kids. My father had sole custody raised us, which was quite unusual at the time. I think divorce was not what it is today. You know, certainly not as well accepted, and to have a single parent household being the father was also unusual, but really she had to give up custody of her children because she didn’t have the money to be able to take care of us, or didn’t feel that she would be in a position. To, you know, raise us on her own. And that’s kind of a, if you think about that story, it sounds like a, it’s a not a good story to say the least. Right? It’s a pretty devastating thing for a mother to have to put herself in, you know, in that position or feel like that was her only option. And it took a long time for me to realize that that was her situation in the case.

[00:08:57] And it really does color my thinking today. You know, when I [00:09:00] think about the work that we do, and we, we work predominantly with women. Both on the, you know, burning River Advisory Group side and on the enlighten her side. And that’s, I think, where it really comes from, you know, my mom’s experience and just trying to make sure that no woman that we come in contact has to make those same decisions that she had to make.

[00:09:19] I.

[00:09:19] Jonathan DeYoe: so I wanna get into this, but I actually, I want to note just right up front that, uh, it’s a little fraught. For two guys in financial services to discuss the difficulties that women have, with money. Uh, it is, it’s a little fraught, but, but let’s do do it anyway. So in your experience working with, uh, female clients, why is it so difficult for women to talk about money with their partners?

[00:09:38] For example,

[00:09:38] Ed Vargo: Well, that’s a loaded question, I guess. Uh, it’s, I think it’s twofold, right? So. The backdrop to this is, I think that women and men approach money differently. I think that’s not just societally. I think that there is, um, you know, from a psychological standpoint or a predisposition, This is, this comes out of the scientific and psychological literature, not my [00:10:00] under, you know, not my take on it, but just what the data suggests is that men have a tendency to gravitate toward things and women have a tendency to gravitate towards people. And you can see this with your own eyes, right? There’s so many more female nurses, right? There’s a reason for that. ’cause women gravitate towards other people. And then there’s so many more male engineers because. Males tend to gravitate toward things. And it’s exacerbated on the, on the extremes, you know?

[00:10:24] So there’s a lot of overlap between men and women of course. But on those extreme ends, you know, you do see women gravitate more toward people and then, you know, men gravitate towards things and money in and of itself is a thing. And so I think very naturally, ’cause I’ve wondered about this for a long time, like, why do men, this is my early, you know, when I was first starting to. Sort of, uh, dipped my toe in the waters of working with women. It, it, it was an evolution. It happened over time and I was learning about the, you know, female psychology and how women think about money. And again, in contrast with how men think about money. ’cause there’s a difference there. And, you know, I [00:11:00] just started to learn more why men were just so much more confident and engaged with money than their, you know, female counterparts. I found that interesting, like just, it just seemed, uh. Time and time, the interactions I had, the males, even if they had no training, right, no understanding. They just inherently felt, this is on average, by the way. I’m not talking to everyone, but on average it skewed to the men were like more confident about money, more willing to engage with it and just almost had like this idea that they should know about this.

[00:11:32] Jonathan DeYoe: I’ve read some of the same studies and the thing that I found most interesting is that, the ability levels are very similar, but men are more confident. And so there’s this overconfidence bias. I’ve actually found women to be, I. I don’t wanna say smarter generally with money, but a little bit more like, let’s, not drastically overspend, let’s not chase the, the new thing and, and save and let’s make sure we have some emergency fund.

[00:11:54] Let’s make sure we have some good plans. Like, so it seems like they’re really smart about it, but they’re still lacking that confidence. So [00:12:00] you’re, I think you’re just about to get into that a little bit,

[00:12:02] Ed Vargo: There’s no difference in aptitude. At the end of

[00:12:04] the day, you know, women are certainly just as capable and in according to some studies, maybe even More.

[00:12:08] capable with money. I think the, the perspectives are different, so men tend to be a little bit more narrowly focused on things like rates of return, the stock market.

[00:12:16] It becomes a bit more of a measuring stick, you know, the accumulation of money is the target. Women tend to be more worldly and more holistic. Instead of, I’m saying something like, I’ve never really heard women. Talk about money like men do. They’re not saying, oh, what’s my rate of return?

[00:12:32] You know, how are we doing against the s and p 500? What’s our benchmark? That’s a very male-centric way of thinking, and it’s also a very financial services industry way of thinking, which we can have a whole conversation about that. but for women, it’s a, well, what is this money gonna do for me? So that’s primary, that’s front and center.

[00:12:48] The byproduct is, yeah, I need a good rate of return. I need to take the appropriate amount of risk. Those are secondary, whereas those are primary for men and for women. Again, it’s more about the goal. What’s the purpose of this money? Am I [00:13:00] gonna be able to educate my children? Am I gonna be able to have work-life balance, retire on time, do those types of things.

[00:13:05] So they’re coming at the problem or the issue of money. Men and women are coming at the, the issue of money from very different perspectives, very different lenses.

[00:13:15] And so when we look at. why women don’t engage with money as much. I think there’s, there’s just that, again, just biologically and naturally.

[00:13:25] Women are less of a predisposition toward things, AKA money, and so they’re less inclined to engage with it. Um, and so that’s sort of the nature side of it and the nurture side is that the financial services industry has not done a great job of making money accessible to women. And I don’t say that in a derogatory way, I just, it’s a practical reality when you think about how the money industry, you know, wall Street and everything that goes with it, grew up that whole industry, grew up our industry. It was men selling to other men. Because that’s who had, that’s who had the money, that’s who was in the workforce, right? So naturally the [00:14:00] marketplace said we need to create dialogue in language and everything else that resonates with men. And that’s what’s happened. And it works very well. So if I’m a male advisor talking to a male client, there’s no bridge the gap.

[00:14:13] We kind of look at things very much the same way. The language is geared toward how men think. And so that’s why there’s so many charts and graphs and rates of return, which is all connecting with the male mind. And then as women have gained their economic power over the years, and now there’re a force in the marketplace, but we still have this legacy language,

[00:14:31] right? You can’t just change the language of finance overnight and you can’t just, and then the male industry, financial services industry is very male dominated, right? So, and think about the industry again as a whole. We have successful men in the financial services industry, working with other successful men in their world.

[00:14:49] Everything’s working just fine. So there’s not a whole lot of impetus to make changes. And now, you know, women are coming along and they’ve have their own economic power. But if you’re the male working [00:15:00] in your industry, in your business, and you’ve gotta change the whole way that you interact with this other market and you don’t really have to do that ’cause you know, you’re, you’re doing just fine as it is, it’s kind of hard to eat an old dog new tricks.

[00:15:12] Jonathan DeYoe: it’s also very interesting that, uh, and this has changed a lot over time. Uh, but I remember going to conferences, you know, when I first entered the industry in like 1996, and 99% men. we’re the advisors and now it’s more like, I don’t know what the number is.

[00:15:27] It’s 70%. It’s still, still a lot of men. You go to a conference, it’s still mostly men, 75% maybe, maybe even 80%. but there’s inroads and there’s definitely been opened up for more people. this is 15, 18 years ago, and I’m wondering if you’ve ever heard anything like this. I also have a majority of female clientele.

[00:15:43] and one woman came in and she said to me, Jonathan, I, I decided you were the right woman for the job. she hired me because maybe of the men she interviewed, I was the, I guess the gentlest or the most planning oriented, least things oriented maybe. but what do you think the difference is? [00:16:00] For a woman hiring a man or a woman hiring a woman to do this because now they have that opportunity.

[00:16:05] I know a lot of women look for women. do you think about that?

[00:16:08] Ed Vargo: Yeah. Well, I think it is natural, for a woman to seek out another woman in this area. ’cause I think the St there are stereotypes about our industry, right? Or women’s experience with working with male advisors, even if it’s on the fringes, a male banker or someone at their workplace, The reality is, is that I don’t know if most advisors come across the right way when they’re in front of women.

[00:16:28] I’m not saying they’re doing anything wrong. I’m not saying they’re

[00:16:31] being anything, they’re just conducting themselves using normal financial advisors speak, but normal financial advisors speak doesn’t work with women clients. It just

[00:16:41] doesn’t. And so you don’t have to, I’m not saying you have to dumb it down, use different language or anything like that, but I’m just saying you, well, you have to kind of use different language, but your approach, how you approach the problem.

[00:16:52] Jonathan DeYoe: You’re not, you’re not talking about returns, you’re talking about plans. that’s exactly my experience.

[00:16:56] Ed Vargo: Yeah. Yeah. And so I don’t, I haven’t found it to be a barrier or [00:17:00] a gap at all in terms of like women wanting to work with, you know, myself as a male. Now, there are some women who definitely wanna work with a female advisor, no problem. Um, in fact, my business partner, she’s a woman, so that helps us, right?

[00:17:12] So I don’t, we, that’s not a barrier in working with our practice, but what I found is most important is really. What is the nature of the conversation?

[00:17:19] What are you talking about? Are you listening just as much as you’re speaking? Are you providing information in a way that is pertinent to that person where they are in their life and how they look at the world? Or are you sort of trying to cram down some information ’cause you think it’s important? You know, and so I’ve always focused on the planning side. The reason that I think we grew and we evolved into working primarily with women wasn’t because I had this great idea that that’s what I wanted to do. It’s, but because I talked about. The work that we do in the context that resonated with women planning in mind, what do you want your money to do for you in life? Money’s not the most important thing, you know? And so I have a way of explaining sort of like a hierarchy. You’re at the top of this hierarchy—you [00:18:00] your goals, your vision, your dreams for tomorrow, your money is a servant of you. Your money needs to serve you and serve you well. We don’t want that money to be a master. And so when we look at money in the context as servant, to me, I. Serving my needs. I think that resonates with women. And then for a lot of men to contrast that it’s easy for me to go in and talk about money, like put money at the top.

[00:18:23] I’m not saying they’re motivated mostly by money, but the conversation is different. I could say, Hey, we’re gonna focus on the, the rate of return or these investments and here’s what it’s gonna do for you. You have to turn that on its head when you’re, when you’re working with women.

[00:18:35] Jonathan DeYoe: what are some of the money scripts and how can we change those money scripts? You talk about these in some of your writing.

[00:18:40] Ed Vargo: Yes. I think that that’s a very important, you asked me the question about what was my experience with money growing up and who, you know, what type of modeling behavior were you? I. Exposed to, and my answer was what it was. I didn’t really have any many positive role models, but I think that’s an important piece because you do create your money scripts when you’re, when you’re in [00:19:00] younger part of life, and you may not even be aware of this, most of these money scripts happen below the surface. You know, so as an example, we still see this a lot and I, I haven’t gotten to the heart of the matter of why that this is, but women are just definitely less likely to talk about money even to other women than men are gonna talk about money.

[00:19:17] There’s something going on there. It’s something like maybe it’s rooted back in the days where, where mothers said to their daughters, well, we don’t talk about money.

[00:19:24] That’s not, you know, that’s not, that’s rude if you talked about money, and that’s an old school mentality, but I think those, those threads have long legs. You know, they just live long. And so you still see this lack of engagement with money. And so women have a, now how do you learn about something? Well, you have to engage in with it, talk about it.

[00:19:40] But if you’ve grown up your whole life. Even if it’s not overt and said, this is just something we don’t do, we don’t talk about money. Then how do you engage with money later in life? It’s much harder to do. So, you know, and so I think there’s also part of, I think, uh, money is math, right? And so, you know, here’s, here’s a stereotype.

[00:19:57] Women don’t like math. Um, but again, that’s [00:20:00] the gravitating towards people versus things, you know? So there is the math of money can be intimidating. The language of money can be intimidating. So, you know, you just kind of, there’s a lot of avoidance. Beneath the service avoidance. and I don’t think a lot of women like articulate that or really think about it in that way. ’cause they, they know the importance of it. And women clearly know money’s important, but there are some money scripts that are basically holding them back from engaging with it.

[00:20:24] Jonathan DeYoe: I go back to this idea of overconfidence and there’s, there’s some sort of advantage in just believing you’re smart about something. Even if you’re really stupid about it. I’ve met, and you’ve probably met many men in your practice as well, that just, they’re just power ahead. Like, yeah, I know how to do this.

[00:20:39] Like a trading options. Sure, I can do this. I’m having literally having this conversation with a client this last week, and I’m like, no, don’t do that. That’s crazy. You’re gonna hurt yourself. oh, well you do it for me. I’m like, no, that’s not what we do here. Trading options is not a good, it’s not a good planning tool, right?

[00:20:51] But there’s this idea that if I project that I’m good at the thing, I’ll be good at the thing. It’s better that you don’t have that. and I think [00:21:00] that’s, it actually favors women in this a lot. I dunno if that you’ve had similar experience.

[00:21:05] Ed Vargo: Yeah, for sure. And so again, going back to scientific literature, and I’m sure you know all about behavioral finance and how that manifests itself in real world behavior. And so at the end of the day, men have a behavioral. Bias, like cognitive bias and overconfidence is one of ’em, just kind of in general,

[00:21:23] and it really shows in when it comes to money I’ll use the opposite end.

[00:21:28] Most of the, you’re very right. We see a lot of guys, especially when I was first getting in the business and we, we met with a lot more men. at that time there was this sort of almost a bravado. It almost like I would get into this, these stump the advisor conversations. Like literally the guy would come in, I’m thinking he wants guidance and help.

[00:21:46] And support to see if he can help him. And it, it sounded more like he wanted to show me how smart he was about money.

[00:21:51] Right? There was an ego that got involved and you don’t see that with women in money.

[00:21:55] You know, I’m sure it happens in other areas, like we’re all humans, but it definitely doesn’t happen with [00:22:00] money. And so there is, there’s this inherent sort of overconfidence around money. So my point, my part of the story was this guy came in and he was like beating himself up because he didn’t know about money. He’s like, I don’t know this stuff. And he was like really down on himself. And I was like, I stopped him.

[00:22:13] Was like, well, have you ever had any training in money? Have you ever been taught this at all? Gone to school or he’s like, no. I said, so why do you think you would know a, you should know this. You’ve

[00:22:23] never been taught. Never been trained. But he in his mind thought, he should know this. He should like, you know, by the gods bestowed with this financial knowledge and who’s kind of sheepish coming in and having this conversation. And so again, that’s just the, an example of like, why do men think that way about money? But they do. There’s this overconfidence and to your point, you know, there is a benefit that you can derive from that.

[00:22:47] Because where it might be a barrier for women to say like, you know, I’m gonna tread lightly. I’m gonna go more slowly, more cautious, which is prudent in many cases. But there is something to be said with like powering ahead, say, I’m gonna go do this and see what happens. [00:23:00] And we see this a lot when it comes to like pay raises. They’ve done. Tons of studies, of course, and I’m not gonna go down this path. It’s a much different conversation about the sort of the gender pay gap. But one of the factors that’s been cited is that men have a tendency to throw their hat in the ring, even when they don’t feel they’re ready.

[00:23:16] So they may not be ready for that promotion, but they’re like, I’m going for it anyway. and sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it. And then women, to contrast that might be more cautious about it.

[00:23:25] Be like, no, I’m not quite ready. I’m just gonna wake up my skills up and when I’m ready then I’ll go apply. Then you got this guy who’s not nearly as skilled or as talented or whatever, and he throws his hat in the ring and he gets the job and he gets paid more. You know? And so that, if you accumulate that over time, it can cause a considerable gap between, you know, person A and person B.

[00:23:47] And so, yeah. So there’s a lot of behavioral stuff that goes on, like this nature stuff that can hold women back again in terms of taking these steps when it comes to engaging with their money. But when they do. You’ve mentioned this a number of times when they do, they’re very successful. [00:24:00] And again, in some, in some studies, they show that may be even more successful, when they do so.

[00:24:04] Jonathan DeYoe: ‘ So I want to kinda go back to your family a little bit. So with a wife and five daughters, how are you as a family sort of making really good, spending decisions? how do you do that? Or, and then how would you teach others?

[00:24:14] Ed Vargo: So when it comes to teaching about money, my kids definitely have a benefit. They’re growing up in a household with a financial advisor father, right? So they’re gonna naturally know more about the ins and outs about money, but we never really have those kinds of conversations.

[00:24:29] Like I’ve never sat down with them. I shouldn’t say never. I have one story to tell about that, but there’s not like a lot of. Money conversations, like, here’s how money works, get on a whiteboard, show them all these different things. Right? There’s no technical conversations and my, my girls are between 19 and 25 right now. so they’re very young and they’re not gonna, you know, pick up on a lot of that. And now they might be a little bit more so, but certainly in their up upbringing, we didn’t have those conversations, but we modeled the right types of behaviors and the conversations we had, never shot away from talking about money in front of [00:25:00] our kids. We always talked about money in the way we wanted them to hear it.

[00:25:04] Jonathan DeYoe: Hmm.

[00:25:05] Ed Vargo: Right. So when my father talked about money, he talked about it in a way that was, I would say, not positive. It wasn’t the right message I should be hearing, and he wasn’t like necessarily talking to us about a lot of this stuff. We were just an earshot. But as a kid, you learn so much just by listening in on your parents’ conversations, right? Sometimes you take those more, at face value because you don’t feel like they’re lecturing you or talking to you directly. So we wanted to leverage that so we would have these money conversations. About a topic, we might just manufacture a conversation about spending as an example and create this message talking, you know, just the two of us together within earshot of the kids. And so they’re picking it up, you know, kind of behind the scenes and they’re building their own money scripts based upon that, within earshot, earshot conversation.

[00:25:53] Jonathan DeYoe: did that intentionally.

[00:25:54] Ed Vargo: Intentionally. Yeah. I can’t say always, but as I got further into it, yeah, [00:26:00] intentionally. And you know, you think about these teachable moments and so teachable moments come up where something just happens in your life and you’re like, oh, this is, I have to be cognizant enough to make this a teachable moment, right?

[00:26:11] It happened and then I have to, but it’s there. Then I could present it to my kids and say, here’s how you learn from this. That happens quite a bit.

[00:26:17] Jonathan DeYoe: Can you give us an example? Like what, how did that conversation go? You and wife having a conversation? The kids are over here in the back.

[00:26:23] Ed Vargo: Sure. Yeah. So there’s two ways to do this. So there’s the teachable moments that are thrust upon you. So we get in a car accident as an ex, as an example, a fender bender. This happened to my wife last night, little fender bender. And, that’s a moment to teach kids about what happened. You know, how do you engage with the police?

[00:26:38] How do you engage with the insurance afterward, right? that’s a moment that is thrust upon you. And so we were always. Very aware about taking advantage of those with money and everything else. ’cause as a kid, of course, they don’t know anything and you’ve gotta teach ’em everything. But when it came to money later on, as I got a little bit smarter about this, I created the teachable moment. You know? So instead of going to my kids and saying, Hey, let me [00:27:00] talk to you about this, um, values-based spending, I wouldn’t use that terminology with them. But, you know, we would talk about values-based spending. We would create this. Create this moment. So it might just be my wife and I sitting on the couch talking about money, and the kids are in the room doing their own thing. And then we would just talk about, you know, how we think about money. Let’s talk about values-based spending. And so you asked I think a little bit earlier about one of my beliefs on spending or how do we control spending, those types of things. One of the things I firmly believe is, and I’m not the first one to come up with this idea, but to spend. I spend a good amount of money on things that are really important to me, that are of value to me and my wife and I spend very little, if not anything, on those things that don’t.

[00:27:41] So as an example, we’ve always gravitated toward doing things. With our kids, you know, creating experiences, whether it’s travel, you know, even local stuff, little staycations kind of thing, creating experience, experiences with our kids. But we weren’t real big on buying a lot of stuff, so we don’t have the latest and greatest iPhone, you know, we [00:28:00] don’t have, you know, a fancy cars, things of that nature. And there’s nothing wrong with those things. It just, they just don’t align with our value system. Instead of trying to tell that to our kids, like, here’s what you should value, or Here’s how you should think about money. We would just talk amongst ourselves, between the two of us, about how we think about money, what’s really important, why it’s important to us, and then they’ll pick up on that if it resonates with them or not. So we weren’t forcing the issue, right? We weren’t like having a lecture. You need to believe this because obviously when you do that. at some point kids rebel.

[00:28:29] But they could take it in take. They could take it in without feeling like it was forced upon them form their own opinions about what they had just heard, and then go from there. And if you do that often enough, and you reinforce it through your behaviors, next thing you know, you have kids that are doing the behaviors that you want them to do without having ever had a real conversation or a big long conversation about it.

[00:28:51] Jonathan DeYoe: you’re tying meaning into money through life. You know, that. I think that’s, that’s one of the most powerful things I’ve heard. I’ve never heard of anyone actually having the intentional conversation with their [00:29:00] partner in front of the kids. So they absorb that conversation without talking at them.

[00:29:05] You know, that’s, that’s a beautiful idea. I hope you know, everyone on the podcast is listening. That’s, a great idea. Everyone should try to do that with their kids.

[00:29:12] Ed Vargo: Yeah, we do that a lot. Not just with money, but other things, you know? And the more sensitive the topic, it might be even more important because emotions get high, right? So if we get into a conversation about a sensitive topic or an emotional topic, emotions run high and then the conversation shuts down. Whereas here, emotions aren’t running high ’cause we’re not having engaging them in that conversation. As long as my wife and I are doing what we should be doing, and of course we’re going down this path on purpose. It’s not manipulative. Some people like that as a manipulation and I don’t know, I think that’s a poor word.

[00:29:45] these are my kids. You know, I’m, I want to instill certain values. I want them to understand what we believe, and they can then interpret, insert their own belief system or take this information and insert it into their own belief system over time. And then when I look at the [00:30:00] outcomes. I can look at like my girl’s peer group and how, you know, their, our house is like the gathering place. Everybody comes over, all their kids and all that kind of stuff. They’re friends and you can hear how their friends talk about money

[00:30:11] and those conversations are being had. And you can look at the decisions that they’re making, how they’re spending money, which is really interesting because, uh, we’re, I would say in a, a more fluent position, you know, than a lot of my friends’ peer groups, you know, we. We have a bit more money and yet my kids spend more cautiously.

[00:30:32] and not because dad’s pressing down on them, but they’re just naturally more conscious about where they’re spending their money than a lot of their friends who have less. So it’s an interesting dichotomy ’cause you would think just the opposite.

[00:30:42] Jonathan DeYoe: I, I actually just the idea this, uh, you said the word manipulation I actually think the reverse. I think that to the extent that you can have these conversations in a way that are gentle, that they can hear, they’re being manipulated already. Like they’re on social media, I’m assuming they’re on social media.

[00:30:59] They’ve got, you know, the [00:31:00] internet, they’ve got friends, they’ve got, the world is already telling them, you know, buy more things, things lead to happiness and, they need to have, everyone needs to have that, spend authentically what’s important to you. You’ve gotta do that important work first.

[00:31:12] You gotta figure out what. Life, what, what it means to you, and then that’s the stuff you spend on. If it’s meaningless, stop spending money on it. Like, that’s so important. You’ve done, I, I I wouldn’t think it’s manipulation. I think it’s fighting back. Like, I think it’s really, really important.

[00:31:26] Ed Vargo: I don’t feel it’s manipulative, but I think to a certain lens, you know, some people

[00:31:30] might feel that way, but I, I definitely don’t feel that way. my job is to train these young. Children to become good adults. I’ve always thought about that. They’re adults in training and I’m the trainer and I’ve gotta guide them.

[00:31:43] And you know, they have independent thought, of course, as they move along. But my job is to instill the right value system and hopefully put them in a position to deal with the world as it is. And to your point is that with social media and all the data mining and everything, like we need to arm our kids with [00:32:00] more, ways to deal with all the stuff that’s coming at them. We never had to deal with this growing up, right? You’re a nineties child, right? You know, gen X, like, we didn’t have to deal with all this stuff.

[00:32:08] The stuff is like, we could be bored back then. Right? You can’t be bored now.

[00:32:13] And with all of the, the data mining, you know, they’re putting all these things in front of our kids saying, this is what you should have, this is what other people have. So that fomo, you know, you only live once, YOLO kind of stuff that’s in their face all the time. And if we’re not there to help them deal with that and put up some armor against it,

[00:32:29] Jonathan DeYoe: It is

[00:32:30] Ed Vargo: you know? Yeah. And it, you’re really seeing that in the, some of the, the problems that the younger generation are having adjusting to society because of, some of those,

[00:32:39] things coming at them.

[00:32:40] Jonathan DeYoe: So I, I, I warned you a little bit about this. I like to ask every advisor that comes on the podcast, this question. in your opinion, what are the most important elements of an advisor’s circle of competence? I know that there’s things that the world I. Sort of thinks about us and, and we just talked a little bit earlier about, returns and performance, and some people want that.

[00:32:59] but [00:33:00] what is the most important thing that an advisor actually does for clients?

[00:33:02] Ed Vargo: Well, I think the, the biggest area of competency is probably in their ability to communicate effectively with their client. When I say communicate, I don’t mean talk at them, but with them to understand where the client’s coming from I’m taking for granted that we know what we’re doing. The financial advisor understands the technical side of his or her job.

[00:33:24] Now, that’s a big if because a lot of advisors don’t have a holistic view on money, right? So there’s, and this is again, not a criticism. Um, everybody can run their business the way they want. So there’s plenty of advisors who, their primary job in the way of engaging with clients is managing their investments.

[00:33:40] That’s what they, this is my job. This is what I do. I’m gonna help manage your money. We’re gonna get you great returns to get you on track for all your goals. Fine. That’s totally fine. and I think if you’re a man talking to a man, that message probably has resonance. I don’t think it’s the, when I look at my role and what we do for our clients, I don’t think that that’s the highest [00:34:00] point of competency that we need to demonstrate or exhibit.

[00:34:03] I think our competency and working with our clientele is having the ability to communicate holistically about the holistic needs of a client across the full spectrum of their entire life.

[00:34:15] Jonathan DeYoe: I’m gonna push back a little bit. think you’re being far too generous and kind. I think that there’s advisor, and I’ll ask the question this way. I think you’re right. There’s a lot of advisors that think that their, circle of competence involves managing money, like investment selection, market timing, performance.

[00:34:31] what does the research say about, an individual advisor, manager’s ability to, beat the market to actually provide performance? What, what does the research say about that?

[00:34:40] Ed Vargo: Oh, well the research is pretty clear that that’s a smoke screen. It’s just

[00:34:43] not popping. Okay. No, there’s no way. Well,

[00:34:48] yeah. Hey, I’m,

[00:34:49] Jonathan DeYoe: do it. They

[00:34:50] Ed Vargo: I

[00:34:50] Jonathan DeYoe: the promise is not possible.

[00:34:52] Ed Vargo: over performance is not, not consistently, not over a long period of time.

[00:34:56] You can get lucky for a while.

[00:34:57] Jonathan DeYoe: right, right.

[00:34:59] Ed Vargo: you know, I [00:35:00] think that’s part of the difference. Again, male and female.

[00:35:02] Um, again, not right or wrong, but women don’t care about beating the market.

[00:35:07] They don’t. A lot of men do. And if you could do it, great. If I could do that right consistently, I would have a line out the door. There’d be,

[00:35:15] Jonathan DeYoe: has has anyone ever done it consistently? Over time? Ever.

[00:35:19] Oh, okay. Just to be

[00:35:20] clear,

[00:35:21] Ed Vargo: no, to be clear, it doesn’t happen. Right. I mean, the

[00:35:23] hedge fund managers will tell you that they can do it, but you know, I don’t know.

[00:35:26] I don’t think the proof’s in the pudding.

[00:35:28] Jonathan DeYoe: we don’t have to be nice to those advisors. We don’t have to say that, you know, it’s a quality way to run your business. I think you hurt people doing that, and I’m, I’m fine saying it. I think putting performance first and talking about investment selection, marketing, timing.

[00:35:38] I think that’s, I’ll say it. You don’t have to say it. I’ll say it. I think we agree, but I’ll say it. I think you’re doing a disservice. so that circle of competence becomes. As you’re saying, understanding the client and then helping the client plan to get from point A to point B, and then sort of keeping them on that plan.

[00:35:54] Does that seem a good, a pretty good sense?

[00:35:56] Ed Vargo: Yeah, absolutely. basically understanding where’s the client going, [00:36:00] and then how do we get to that point B.

[00:36:02] and we’re at point A, how do we get from point A to point B as efficiently as possible? That’s the way I describe it to clients, because what tends to happen is you think, and this is the terminology that I, the language I use with in a client meeting, and I think this does tie into your competency conversation, is the reality is, is that if you had a client and you said, Hey, you need to get to Santa Bernard, California, and you were in Cleveland, Ohio. You know how, how would you get there? Because if I said, get in your car and drive and get there, could you get there? Yeah, you probably could get there. Now, you’d take a bunch of twisty turns to get there, right? You might end up way off track, but eventually you’d make your way, at least to California, and then it would take more time to get to San Bernardino, and that’s a typical client’s money experience.

[00:36:43] They manage money on their own. They go, you know, they’re making these decisions. They’re investing in whatever their 401k plans and things of that. So they’re directionally going in, you know? Correct. But if you had Google Maps and you could put in San Bernardino from Cleveland, would you get there faster?

[00:36:56] Would you get there cheaper? Would you have more options once you got [00:37:00] there? ’cause you had more time?

[00:37:01] And so that’s a good analogy. We put guardrails around client’s view of money, and we help them make better decisions. And so our circle of competency really starts with our frame of reference. Our goal, our objective isn’t to be the best money manager.

[00:37:15] Not that that’s not important. We’re definitely not saying we’re gonna beat the market,

[00:37:19] but we’re saying that we’re gonna help you be as efficient and as smart with your money as possible, going from point A to point B, wherever that is. It could be college, it could be retirement, it could be taking, uh, building a legacy. It could be just getting outta debt, whatever it is. And that circle of competency is understanding the needs of the client and then understanding the world of finance in a holistic way that allows us to be an advisor in all of those areas. And I’ll be honest, I think a lot of, you know, financial advisors don’t wanna do that work because it’s really easy, relatively speaking.

[00:37:52] I don’t think it’s really easy to manage money, but relative to being a comprehensive financial advisor, it’s far easier to just manage money than it is to be [00:38:00] a comprehensive financial advisor.

[00:38:01] And I can get that. Why someone would say, you know, I would wanna, I don’t wanna learn all that. I don’t wanna have to keep up with all of that.

[00:38:07] That’s not important to me. I get that. But for me, I’m just the opposite. I wouldn’t be in this business if I had to just manage money for clients. That doesn’t get me going. But helping a client, becoming that trusted advisor, that confidant to them, that’s motivational. To me, it is more work, but I think it’s also more rewarding and engaging work.

[00:38:25] So it works.

[00:38:27] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. And after, I mean, you’ve been doing this as long as I’ve been doing it. I’m doing this for 30 years. you build these relationships and people are actually really, I got to retire because you helped me out for the last 25 years. Like, that’s, oh, I just get shivered every time I think about some of those conversations.

[00:38:40] It’s beautiful.

[00:38:41] There’s a ton of noise out there. I like to ask every guest to simplify something for us. so I want you to pretend, put on your best advisor hat here. pretend you’re, you’re sitting in front of a woman who’s just about to go through divorce. What is one thing that she should focus on that’s gonna lead to better outcomes through that divorce?

[00:38:58] Ed Vargo: Wow, that’s a big [00:39:00] question. Part of it. It depends where they are in the divorce process. And I don’t mean to shirk the question because to think about divorces, we think of it as like a single moment in time, but really it’s oftentimes years and years in the making.

[00:39:14] So depending upon where they are on that continuum, if they’re very early in the divorce, even just thinking about divorce as a possibility or early in the divorce process, it can change the way we answer the question.

[00:39:26] But on a more holistic point of view. I would say, the thing about divorce is you’ve gotta be your own advocate and you’ve gotta be as strong as you possibly can through the process. And that seemed like that’s a very murky, I don’t know if it’s a very helpful answer, but what I mean by that is. You’re gonna be pulled in so many different directions in the divorce process. The problem with divorce, the really big challenge of it, it’s not just one thing you have to contend with. So you have three major issues. You have the financial side [00:40:00] of the equation, which requires your its own set of advisors and understanding. It’s a legal process. You have to have your own set of lawyers and understanding of that part of the process. And then there’s this huge emotional element that goes with it. And so if you’re strong in two of those areas and pour in one, it could blow up the entire process.

[00:40:18] And so I think that most important though, central to all of this is like you, your ability to manage all the stuff that’s coming at you emotionally, because you can go out if you’re good with yourself, right?

[00:40:30] It’s, if you imagine if you could be a non-emotional decision maker through this pros, like, I won’t say Spock or like a, a robot or anything like that, but just like a very dispassionate. Understanding and not letting the emotions overtake the moment you have to do that work yourself and with conjunction, maybe a therapist, but you can hire out the work for the attorney.

[00:40:50] You can hire out the financial advisor work, but you can’t hire out that work on yourself.

[00:40:55] And so there’s been many occasions when I’m sitting down with women [00:41:00] going through the financials and. They’re having a difficult time hearing me because of the emotions of the moment. And this is not a uniquely female thing.

[00:41:08] It certainly happens with men too, but we work pre predo predominantly with women. So that’s my lens, but that’s the biggest thing because if you can be good with that and be as good as you possibly can, be as strong as you possibly can, it allows you to engage with those other elements and be a better decision maker and to advocate for yourself.

[00:41:27] Because what I found is that despite of having these other professionals, you still need to advocate for yourself immensely.

[00:41:33] Jonathan DeYoe: I’ve actually run into a few times when, I’ve had clients who’ve gotten divorced and I’ve watched that divorce process unfold and the man being very focused on the size of the assets they end up with. The woman just really wants the family home and will give up. Way more than she should give up in order to retain this one thing that she has this emotional attachment to.

[00:41:53] And it’s just really, I think you’re, I think you’re spot on to sort of level set your emotions so that you can look at everything [00:42:00] really rationally. I mean, it’s, it’s tough to ask. it’s a big ask, but it’s really, really important so that the flip side of that coin is what’s one thing that they’re likely focused on that she should just let go of?

[00:42:12] Ed Vargo: Another good question and a big question at that, ’cause it can vary so much I think. There tends to be emotional attachments that can overwhelm, you know, all others. And you mentioned this is maybe not the exact answer to your question. I think like the attachment to the family home,

[00:42:28] the home that my child grew up in, where I raised my kids, the neighborhood, that can be a really big sticking point. And maybe it’s a microcosm of a bigger issue, you know, again, where the emotions take hold. But yeah, they’ll give up. Assets, you know, liquid assets, things that will help power their retirement and allow them to live their life today for the home and to their own detriment. You know, that can, that happens quite a bit.

[00:42:52] We see that quite a bit.

[00:42:54] but just that general idea, like if you find yourself too emotionally attached or, I wouldn’t look at the divorce process [00:43:00] as a way to get even sometimes we see that as well, you know, that it becomes just like I gotta. It’s gotta be exactly even, or fair, you know?

[00:43:08] ’cause those are loaded words. in the divorce arena, one of the things I found with divorce, it’s, it’s kinda like the wild West. it’s unlike any other area in finance and in, well, I can’t say law per se, but that I’ve come across because normally the rules are x in as long as you understand what the rules are, you can engage effectively within it. the rules really aren’t there. It’s kind of like, well, there’s all these possibilities and. What possibility you avail yourself of is predicated upon how good you are at playing the game.

[00:43:36] Jonathan DeYoe: it’s a whole list of trade-offs, right?

[00:43:38] Ed Vargo: it very much is.

[00:43:40] And if you’re not good at deal, if you’re not good at this, and, and a lot of people aren’t, cause it’s a combative process. The divorce process is a combative, antagonistic process. The actual process itself, the legal process is not designed to deescalate, it’s designed to escalate. You think about the, the most. high power charged times in a a divorce case would [00:44:00] be when you’re litigating it means you’re in the courtroom. those are the most high powered, most highly emotional, divorce cases is when you’re litigating literally the one side’s trying to beat the other with their attorneys. Duking it out, that’s escalating the tensions, whereas you really want to deescalate so people can come to the table, try and find some common ground, and then be able to. As much as you can part as friends, but

[00:44:25] the process really isn’t built for that.

[00:44:27] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, it’s hard for sure. I like to, at the end here, I like to loop back to some personal questions. If you could, um, get the truth about any question, I can’t give you the answer, but what would your question be? I.

[00:44:38] Ed Vargo: You’re talking just in general about

[00:44:40] anything. in general, how long you’re gonna live. Like, will will my son go to Harvard or whatever, you know, whatever the thing, daughter, go to Harvard. You know what, what, whatever question you’d have, what would the, what would you like to know? One answer.

[00:44:50] I mean, the first, thought that came to mind honestly was just does God exist?

[00:44:54] Jonathan DeYoe: Huh. Wow.

[00:44:55] Ed Vargo: I mean, uh, that’s the plane. I mean, I think so, you know, I’m, [00:45:00] but you know, to have. Exact knowledge or proof, you know, I think about what that would do to the world if we knew that God existed.

[00:45:06] Jonathan DeYoe: Huh.

[00:45:07] Well, wouldn’t that remove faith? I, I, I have a legit religious studies degree, so I, I, this is, I would talk about this for an hour and a half myself.

[00:45:16] Ed Vargo: you know, well, the ramifications of knowing that knowledge, yeah, right. ’cause then it removes the whole faith element. Then what’s the point of God? I don’t know. So it’s, it’s a big question.

[00:45:26] Jonathan DeYoe: I’ve never gotten that question before. That’s a great one. I love it. finally, is there anything that people don’t know about you or maybe you’ve said to some people but they don’t remember that you really want them to know?

[00:45:34] Ed Vargo: what we haven’t discussed at all today was, uh, enlighten her. And I think that’s something that would be important for maybe the audience to hear because it’s somewhat top of my mind. So enlighten her what it is. it’s a sister company of ours, and so as a financial advisor with Burning River, we can, as a company, you know, we’re a small boutique financial planning operation, we might be able to work with a couple hundred households. Now my daughter might be coming into the business, so we could expand that maybe by another [00:46:00] 50 or a hundred, but it’s not that many, right? Literally, 200 to 250 households. And the reason for that is because our relationships are very, Very intense, I guess. I mean, they’re very labor intense. That’s really, we, we get into the fabric of their lives and so it takes a lot of time and a lot of understanding, working one-on-one. and because of that, we can’t have that many clients, you know, to provide the level of service that we wanna provide. So it’s very limiting. And when I think about that, it’s like, I have 24 years in this industry, and my business partner has 19. We have all this knowledge, and yet we can only share it with a couple hundred households.

[00:46:33] You know? So it felt a little bit like. There’s something wrong with that, I guess. Like I felt we, like we could do more. And so now I’m looking at my girls and I’m saying, you know, I’m looking at how they’re growing up and I’m, I’m saying, well, I think they’re on a, a better path. Like they have a stronger foundation to enter into their lives and to be strong with money and be empowered with money because it’s really important.

[00:46:53] If you’re gonna be an empowered person, you need to be empowered with your money. I don’t, think you can do both or I don’t think you’d be [00:47:00] truly empowered if you don’t have. Money on your side or your knowledge of money on your side. You don’t have to be rich or anything like that, but you have to really know and how to engage with money. And so that became the genesis of this idea for Enlighten Her, which is kind of a big tent. We wanna take the knowledge that we have and we can’t do it one-on-one. But you know, with the power of the internet today and podcasts and digital courses and those types of things, can we start to have a much larger footprint and impact on the world?

[00:47:27] Take some of these learnings and get ’em out there into the world at large. And that’s where Enlightener comes in. So, you know, enlightener is a burgeoning company. We’re just getting started. We’re get just getting off the ground. A financial coaching and education company for women. We do have, um. our first offering, I guess our first program is called Divorce Navigator.

[00:47:47] It basically is, you know, it’s about this topic of helping women understand the divorce process, whether you’re at the earliest stages of it or you’re about to step into it or knee deep into it. It really is designed to help women have a much better [00:48:00] understanding of what this process is like. ’cause it’s if you’re going through a divorce, it’s the most. Or one of the most difficult, challenging, and far reaching times of your life because the decisions that you make there have threads that carry with you for the rest of your life.

[00:48:15] So, that’s really important to us right now is to get the word out and, you know, we’re trying to help bring, make financial, the financial services industry more accessible to women.

[00:48:24] We know

[00:48:24] the big wall street’s not doing it right. I mean, they’re talking about it. But you know, there’s really not enough motivation for them to do it. So we’re we’re doing our small part to try and bring that information and knowledge out to the masses.

[00:48:37] Jonathan DeYoe: So how do people find, well, how do people connect with you? And then how do people find, enlighten her?

[00:48:41] Ed Vargo: Yeah, you just go to enlighten her.com. And then there’s a section that’s geared towards just general finance. If you’re just, you know, a woman who’s thinking about, engaging with money and wants to learn a little bit more, you can, there’s a great, you know, white paper on there, nine money myths, talking about some money myths that women, you know, kind of grew up with.

[00:48:58] So that’s a great piece to look at. If you’re going [00:49:00] through divorce, there’s an a piece there, 12 steps about. Financial wellness and, uh, emotional wellbeing is on there as well. Sign up for the blog. I think it’s a great, real world information. You know, we, what we try to do is write for, for women for where they are. And you know, we, we’ve in stories and examples in real life things that resonate with women. Again, we, having worked with women in this way for over 20 years, we have a pretty good understanding of the mindset of a woman. It is very different than, um, the financial service industry understands. And if you’re, you know, someone who wanted to engage more directly needed that real intense, one-on-one type of, they can go to burning river ag.com and you know, our materials on there.

[00:49:40] Jonathan DeYoe: Sounds good, ed. Thanks mu, uh, much for coming on. We’re gonna make sure all that stuff’s in the show notes and I really appreciate your time.

[00:49:45] Ed Vargo: Yeah. Thanks for having me. It’s fun.

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